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50% of fatalities in nursing homes in some States

Posted

Specializes in ER. Has 28 years experience.

I was wondering, do you think that countries that do more elder care in family settings, rather than institutional ones, will fare better in this crisis?

I read today, on a mainstream news outlet, that in some states 50% of the fatalities from the Coronavirus are from nursing home patients. More than 10,000 nursing home deaths in NY alone.

I'm pretty sure that less wealthy countries do most of their eldercare by relatives. What do you think? Nursing homes seem to be a vortex for coronovirus fatalities.

A Hit With The Ladies, BSN, RN

Specializes in Psych. Has 5 years experience.

America is a nation of individualists who prize their liberty like none other. The extended family model does not work in an industrialized nation like this one. We value our privacy and freedom too much to let our parents live with us when we're grown up. It's imperative that adults be able to function independently and (if they so choose) start their own nuclear families.

I'm a 31-year old Millennial and I know that there is no way I would have my parents live with me when they get very old. I'm willing to come by from time to time and help them, but I have told mom that it's out of the question for her to live with me at that time. She tried the whole "We didn't put you in daycare when you were little" line, but I'm not falling for that emotional manipulation.

When it comes to your own emotional happiness, you have to be selfish in this country, or else other people will guilt-trip you into misery or doing something you don't want to do.

Emergent, RN

Specializes in ER. Has 28 years experience.

1 hour ago, A Hit With The Ladies said:

I'm a 31-year old Millennial and I know that there is no way I would have my parents live with me when they get very old. I'm willing to come by from time to time

A 31 yr old Millennial? I would have never guessed.😉

4 hours ago, A Hit With The Ladies said:

America is a nation of individualists who prize their liberty like none other. The extended family model does not work in an industrialized nation like this one. We value our privacy and freedom too much to let our parents live with us when we're grown up. It's imperative that adults be able to function independently and (if they so choose) start their own nuclear families.

I'm a 31-year old Millennial and I know that there is no way I would have my parents live with me when they get very old. I'm willing to come by from time to time and help them, but I have told mom that it's out of the question for her to live with me at that time. She tried the whole "We didn't put you in daycare when you were little" line, but I'm not falling for that emotional manipulation.

When it comes to your own emotional happiness, you have to be selfish in this country, or else other people will guilt-trip you into misery or doing something you don't want to do.

It sounds as though you believe your only responsibility is to yourself and to your own pursuit of whatever you call happiness; that you have no responsibilities towards others, even to your family, who surely have helped you and done their best for you in the process of raising you, and who no doubt continue to do their best for you because they love you and want the best for you.

I don't see your Mom as manipulating you. I see her as trying to help you to see that she has done things to help you out of her love for you, and that she is trusting that you will extend yourself to help her by meeting her needs if she is unable to live by herself as she gets older. I don't imagine she wants to think and I would imagine it is painful for her to think, that you will happily accept all the love and other good things she has given you/done for you and not reciprocate with a similar effort when she needs this if you possibly can.

Edited by Susie2310

A Hit With The Ladies, BSN, RN

Specializes in Psych. Has 5 years experience.

I already said in my post that I am amenable and willing to help them out when they are of elderly age. What I am not going to do is forsake my entire autonomy to being a round-the-clock personal assistant for them. It's called personal boundaries and when people fail to be explicit and firm about not over-extending themselves, that's when people develop resentments and lasting unhappiness. People from ages 30s-50s are usually too busy raising their own children and dealing with the financial responsibilities with that. How many Americans can afford to care for between one to four (assuming both you and the spouse or partner have both sets of parents alive) extra dependents? Be pragmatic! Love doesn't pay any bills.

VivaLasViejas, ASN, RN

Specializes in LTC, assisted living, med-surg, psych. Has 20 years experience.

I think your post was a little harsh, AHWTL. Your mother may be manipulative, I don't know her (or you), but please don't turn your back on her if she needs you. I am 61, widowed, disabled, and I live with my 29-year-old son and his husband. Without them I would be on the street, as my disability payments are nowhere near enough for me to live on my own. (My family also agrees that I shouldn't live alone anyway, as I have a mental condition that sometimes renders me incapable of caring for myself.) I am so grateful to them for allowing me to live with them and be as independent as I can be within my limitations both financial and medical.

On the other hand, if I ever get to the point where I'm not safe to be at home, I've told them to go ahead and put me in a care facility. Even though I literally would rather die than be in a nursing home, I don't think it would be fair to expect my family to give up their personal life to provide me with total care.

A Hit With The Ladies, BSN, RN

Specializes in Psych. Has 5 years experience.

It might be harsh, but sometimes being harsh is flat-out necessary. If you equivocate and show weakness, people here in America will be eating out of your hands by getting you to go against your own self-interest.

Also, it's not just about finances for American families that is a problem when it comes to caring for the elderly. Like I said before, we are an individualist society, and people here are expected to raise their children without being dependents on social support system. Most Americans, regardless of social class, consider it shameful to have outsiders come in and help you raise your kids. Sadly, many American couples end up drained after caring for children and their finances day-in day-out, and have marital problems because they have little energy left for each other. Can you imagine anything more of a buzzkill than having your parents in the same home as you? Or your in-laws?!

Everyone wants peace in their households. At times when there's fighting between spouses or couples it can be a real struggle to return to that peace. Throwing your own parents (or your spouse's parents, who are not going to be unbiased) into the mix is a guaranteed circus.

Lastly, this is just against nature. What other species has old parents return to be cared for by grown children? When aging birds or elephants no longer can care for themselves, they know it's their time. The real selfishness is being a burden on your own grown kids trying to make it in the hard world.

CharleeFoxtrot, BSN, RN

Has 10 years experience.

11 hours ago, Emergent said:

I was wondering, do you think that countries that do more elder care in family settings, rather than institutional ones, will fare better in this crisis?

Look to Italy for your answer.

herring_RN, ASN, BSN

Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical. Has 49 years experience.

14 hours ago, VivaLasViejas said:

I think your post was a little harsh, AHWTL. Your mother may be manipulative, I don't know her (or you), but please don't turn your back on her if she needs you. I am 61, widowed, disabled, and I live with my 29-year-old son and his husband. Without them I would be on the street, as my disability payments are nowhere near enough for me to live on my own. (My family also agrees that I shouldn't live alone anyway, as I have a mental condition that sometimes renders me incapable of caring for myself.) I am so grateful to them for allowing me to live with them and be as independent as I can be within my limitations both financial and medical.

On the other hand, if I ever get to the point where I'm not safe to be at home, I've told them to go ahead and put me in a care facility. Even though I literally would rather die than be in a nursing home, I don't think it would be fair to expect my family to give up their personal life to provide me with total care.

VivaLasViejas: I've known you here for decades. I remember you were an excellent nurse, a compassionate and fair Director of Nursing, and a loving Mom. This could not have been easy to accomplish with a disability.

Good for your family for being able and willing to welcome you into your home! It is a tribute to you and them.

My Grandfather died of cancer when I was six months old. My Grandma owed about $20,000.00 to the hospital and doctors. That was a lot of money in 1944. She was an LPN and started a Welcome business to pay off bills. The hospital and one of the doctors told her the bills would be forgiven she said, "No, I want to pay what I owe. When what she owed was about equal to the value of her house she sold the house and stayed with her adult children.

We moved to California about that time. She stayed with her son and his family or my aunt and her family in Oklahoma from late Spring until Winter. She stayed with us when it was cold. She was a wonderful woman, a role model to her younger family members.

When my husband and I bought our home she moved in with us for much of the year. Grandma share a bedroom, sleeping on a bottom bunk with our daughter on top. Son had a small bedroom, husband and I slept on a sofa bed in the living room. She and my husband got along well. What a blessing it was to have her kindness, wisdom, and love. We struggled financially then, but worked hard and enjoyed life. What fond memories and funny stories we, our cousins, and in-laws have.

I posted about our Mommy's childhood last week on the "Blue Side"

https://allnurses-breakroom.com/Friday-may-st-t177634/?do=findComment&comment=1599655

Each family is different. Each family member is different. When my Dad's mother, a wonderful smart, kind, ambitious, woman was 89 she began to have physical problems and dementia. Our Dad and step-Mom put her is a good nursing home. Family and friends made a schedule so that someone visited her at least once a day, every day until she died at age 94.

I believe our elderly deserve as much comfort and care as we can provide. I hope as a country we can do something about the unsafe staffing in nursing homes that causes so much suffering.

InTheLongRun

Has 15 years experience.

it doesn't matter what I think truly.

Most Americans are people struggling to make it pay check to paycheck and trying to sandwich raising kids and caring for elderly parents. that's one thing when the parent is cognizant and alert and not suffering from a chronic condition in need of regular attention and medications or mobility limitations.

As for SNF's , they are like other institutions operating on economy of scale. It's much more cost effective than other alternatives.

In a country that wasn't so bankrupt it would be worth it to incur the costs as part of a civilized society worth living in. But here we gut Medicaid and then beat up being under-resourced when they're operating on a shoestring. Because we can't tax the wealthiest of the wealthiest or ever ask them to pitch in.

On 5/3/2020 at 2:36 PM, herring_RN said:

VivaLasViejas: I've known you here for decades. I remember you were an excellent nurse, a compassionate and fair Director of Nursing, and a loving Mom. This could not have been easy to accomplish with a disability.

Good for your family for being able and willing to welcome you into your home! It is a tribute to you and them.

My Grandfather died of cancer when I was six months old. My Grandma owed about $20,000.00 to the hospital and doctors. That was a lot of money in 1944. She was an LPN and started a Welcome business to pay off bills. The hospital and one of the doctors told her the bills would be forgiven she said, "No, I want to pay what I owe. When what she owed was about equal to the value of her house she sold the house and stayed with her adult children.

We moved to California about that time. She stayed with her son and his family or my aunt and her family in Oklahoma from late Spring until Winter. She stayed with us when it was cold. She was a wonderful woman, a role model to her younger family members.

When my husband and I bought our home she moved in with us for much of the year. Grandma share a bedroom, sleeping on a bottom bunk with our daughter on top. Son had a small bedroom, husband and I slept on a sofa bed in the living room. She and my husband got along well. What a blessing it was to have her kindness, wisdom, and love. We struggled financially then, but worked hard and enjoyed life. What fond memories and funny stories we, our cousins, and in-laws have.

I posted about our Mommy's childhood last week on the "Blue Side"

https://allnurses-breakroom.com/Friday-may-st-t177634/?do=findComment&comment=1599655

Each family is different. Each family member is different. When my Dad's mother, a wonderful smart, kind, ambitious, woman was 89 she began to have physical problems and dementia. Our Dad and step-Mom put her is a good nursing home. Family and friends made a schedule so that someone visited her at least once a day, every day until she died at age 94.

I believe our elderly deserve as much comfort and care as we can provide. I hope as a country we can do something about the unsafe staffing in nursing homes that causes so much suffering.

You story reminds me of the most important person in my life, my grandmother. She passed away. I am definitely not among those who are self sacrificing. However, if there is A WAY I can bring my grandmother back to stay with me, I WOULD do anything for it, my money or even my life, no matter if she is disabled or not. Because of having her in my life, my life is meaningful; able to taking care of her, I feel satisfied.

On 5/3/2020 at 2:07 AM, A Hit With The Ladies said:

It might be harsh, but sometimes being harsh is flat-out necessary. If you equivocate and show weakness, people here in America will be eating out of your hands by getting you to go against your own self-interest.

Also, it's not just about finances for American families that is a problem when it comes to caring for the elderly. Like I said before, we are an individualist society, and people here are expected to raise their children without being dependents on social support system. Most Americans, regardless of social class, consider it shameful to have outsiders come in and help you raise your kids. Sadly, many American couples end up drained after caring for children and their finances day-in day-out, and have marital problems because they have little energy left for each other. Can you imagine anything more of a buzzkill than having your parents in the same home as you? Or your in-laws?!

Everyone wants peace in their households. At times when there's fighting between spouses or couples it can be a real struggle to return to that peace. Throwing your own parents (or your spouse's parents, who are not going to be unbiased) into the mix is a guaranteed circus.

Lastly, this is just against nature. What other species has old parents return to be cared for by grown children? When aging birds or elephants no longer can care for themselves, they know it's their time. The real selfishness is being a burden on your own grown kids trying to make it in the hard world.

It is true that Everyone wants peace in their households. However, people define things differently. For me, having my beloved grandmother stay with me, it is my peace; without her, a hole in my heart.

I would die before I put my mother in a LTC center. That is not to bash the people who work in LTC, most are wonderful. But I will take care of my mother like she took care of me if she ever needs it. And I would consider it to be a privilege. The same goes for my MIL.

lifelearningrn, BSN, RN

Specializes in School Nursing. Has 7 years experience.

On 5/2/2020 at 9:06 PM, A Hit With The Ladies said:

America is a nation of individualists who prize their liberty like none other. The extended family model does not work in an industrialized nation like this one. We value our privacy and freedom too much to let our parents live with us when we're grown up. It's imperative that adults be able to function independently and (if they so choose) start their own nuclear families.

I'm a 31-year old Millennial and I know that there is no way I would have my parents live with me when they get very old. I'm willing to come by from time to time and help them, but I have told mom that it's out of the question for her to live with me at that time. She tried the whole "We didn't put you in daycare when you were little" line, but I'm not falling for that emotional manipulation.

When it comes to your own emotional happiness, you have to be selfish in this country, or else other people will guilt-trip you into misery or doing something you don't want to do.

Having lost both my parents in their early 50s, I never had the opportunity to care for them in their old age. They always said the didn't want to be a 'burden' on us, so maybe them leaving this earth early was a blessing to them in that respect. I can say without a doubt I would have LOVED to have been able to care for them in their old age. To me caring for your elderly is an honor.

There are some cases where keeping a parent in the home is near impossible (mid-late stage dementia) and other conditions that need skilled care.

American selfishness definitely helps keep LTC centers necessary, I agree with you there. I'm just not as proud of that aspect of our nature as you are.

Emergent, RN

Specializes in ER. Has 28 years experience.

There are some parents who are abusive to their offspring. Sometimes it is important for adult children to distance themselves from their parents.

My father was one of those. Basically, he was abusive. He made sexual advances at me, he was essentially a narcissistic man to the core. He constantly tried to manipulate me with the prospect of an inheritance.

He died in January. It turns out I had been disinherited for many many years. I only found that out when I got a letter from the lawyer notify me of his death. His current woman didn't think it necessary to notify my brother and me.

Sometimes the healthiest thing for a person is to let go, and forge forward with their life. We can't allow some so-called obligation to force us into a toxic situation.

JadedCPN, BSN, RN

Specializes in Pediatrics, Pediatric Float, PICU, NICU. Has 15 years experience.

Just now, Emergent said:

There are some parents who are abusive to their offspring. Sometimes it is important for adult children to distance themselves from their parents.

My father was one of those. Basically, he was abusive. He made sexual advances at me, he was essentially a narcissistic man to the core. He constantly tried to manipulate me with the prospect of an inheritance.

He died in January. It turns out I had been disinherited for many many years. I only found that out when I got a letter from the lawyer notify me of his death. His current woman didn't think it necessary to notify my brother and me.

Sometimes the healthiest thing for a person is to let go, and forge forward with their life. We can't allow some so-called obligation to force us into a toxic situation.

Of course not, and I don't think the general consensus of any of the posters was saying to put yourself in a toxic situation like this just because you feel obligated. Thankfully I think your situation tends to be the exception rather than the norm.

I'm so sorry about what you went through, nobody should have to experience that.