Facial coverings effective?

Nurses COVID

Published

I’m sure I have an unpopular opinion but does anyone else feel like the mass push for facial coverings and masks has very little benefit? Think about it (I know this is immature, so forgive me) if a fart can go through underwear and a pair of jeans... can’t good ol’ Rona go through a piece of cotton? Not only that, the general public is not educated in how to wear PPE and are not wearing the masks or gloves correctly.

Frankly... mask and gloves provide them with a false sense of security.

As nurses, we are keenly of what’s clean or sterile so we can do a pretty good job navigating ourselves in public during this pandemic. However, not trying to be disrespectful or anything, watching the public on with their masks and gloves on is quite entertaining to say the least. I was in Whole Foods recently and you can see who’s a medical professional from a mile away as it’s obvious to see which hand they’ve designated as their “dirty hand” and how they hold they hand in resting position while grocery shopping! If I can smell my coffee through my mask as I pick up a new bag from the shelf and toss it into the cart, then Rona ain’t going to be fooled by my mask. I’m not willing to waste an N95 for grocery shopping.
I just don’t see the need for a mask out in public unless you have a new or sudden change in cough or are immune compromised. We will always have rouge individuals who will defy advice and not wear a mask when sick, but I’m talking about the general public. I do see the benefit when you have a cough as it will stop the droplets from traveling further. But just breathing in and out can transfer this virus... I don’t know how a mask will provide protection from this.
I live in a fairly wealthy area where almost EVERYONE is wearing a mask in public. For those who are not wearing a mask, is it because of a conscious decision, typically unrelated to financial reasons.

My case is: I don’t see the efficacy of surgical/homemade masks against coronavirus for healthy individuals.

Thoughts?

3 hours ago, blue_bug said:

It doesn’t matter who posted it or if they took it down, the fact remains they cannot filter viruses and there’s even a question about droplets...I’ll reiterate what I’ve already said, and still say...they are 100% ineffective at filtering viruses. At best they can filter droplets which you can also achieve by covering your mouth and nose when you cough/sneeze. It’s not an effective strategy or one that’s recommended elsewhere for healthy people to mask. Also masking is not risk free, so to require it without having a clear benefit is ridiculous.

1) No one has said they filter viruses. THE POINT IS NOT TO FILTER VIRUSES! I will 100% agree with you that cloth masks don't filter viruses, but that doesn't matter because cloth masks in public are not INTENDED to protect the wearer from viruses.

2) The point is to contain droplets. Cloth masks in public are intended to keep your own droplets to yourself. If I keep my droplets to myself and you keep your droplets to yourself, then we are protecting each other.

3) I'm glad you cover your mouth and nose when you cough/sneeze. Do you also cover your mouth and nose when you talk or breathe? Because you can spew droplets that way, too. We know people are infectious when they are asymptomatic or presymptomatic, so covering a cough isn't good enough.

4) It absolutely IS recommended elsewhere for healthy people to mask. Mask wearing is credited with slowing transmission rates in many Asian countries, and is required/recommended in other western nations like France.

Arguing that cloth masks aren't effective because they don't filter viruses is like arguing that cars aren't effective because they don't fly. If I need to fly, I take a plane. If I need to protect myself from a COVID patient in the hospital, I wear an N95. If I'm just going to the grocery store, a car is adequate. If I'm just at the grocery store, cloth masks will keep my droplets to myself and keep your droplets to yourself in case one of us is infectious.

And, I will join you in your assertion that healthy people don't need to wear masks, but the point isn't that a healthy person is wearing a mask; the point is that we're asking "healthy" people to wear masks. Because while a healthy person doesn't have COVID and doesn't need a mask, a "healthy" person can be infected and infectious without knowing it. The only way to get asymptomatic and presymptomatic carriers to keep their secretions to themselves is to ask EVERYONE to wear a mask, wash their hands, and maintain social distance, regardless of how "healthy" they feel or appear.

9 Votes
Specializes in Peds ED.
13 hours ago, blue_bug said:

I realize there are significant differences on both sides! That doesn’t mean the claim or study isn’t applicable. The truth is these masks simply cannot filter viruses. And some of the crazy things I’ve seen people do are driving in them (so they are in them for much longer than just the grocery run), leave them sitting in their car (not washing and reusing them), touching everything in sight and then adjusting the mask, pulling it down to eat, putting it under the nose...they are quite literally bringing more virus and bacteria particles to the mask where it has exhaled droplets for them to incubate right at the mouth and nose. It is all mind baffling. LOL

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Also in that pic I just put up, I think the surgical mask they are using is a level 3 which I have not seen the public have. At most the ones I’ve seen are level 1 and can’t filter viruses at all.

But they’re not meant to “filter” anything; containing respiratory droplets is an important aspect. Surgical masks have never “filtered” anything and yet they are effective at droplet reduction. While there is a possible airborne risk the most common mode of transmission does still appear to be droplet which is exactly what the masks do.

And the whole point of the masks is to protect others from the wearer, not the other way around. If asymptomatic transmission turns out to be very rare it makes sense to only encourage those with symptoms to wear masks (if they must be around others) but an n of 455 showing very unlikely asymptotic transmission when multiple other studies with on my quick count an n of 50 showing there is asymptomatic transmission isn’t conclusive when it is 34 times as deadly as the flu with the sequelae for survivors that are pretty significant too.

2 Votes
Specializes in Occupational Health; Adult ICU.
18 hours ago, blue_bug said:

All they can do is reduce droplets, which can also be achieved by covering your mouth when you cough and sneeze. Hygiene 101. Thanks for recalling what I already said.

Please take a look at NPR's excellent video showing a sneeze:

Bichell, Watch: A Slow-Motion Sneeze Looks A Lot Like Breathing Fire.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/08/24/490670499/watch-a-slow-motion-sneeze-looks-a-lot-like-breathing-fire

Sadly, there is no video comparing a sneeze to a “covered sneeze." If there were, I am quite sure that even a well-placed sneeze, precisely to the crook of the elbow, would show massive "leakage."

Both the mask, and a properly "caught" sneeze (as properly as could be) would likely not capture all droplets/aerosols. Still, you appear to be saying that "covering a sneeze," is useful, while a face mask, is not at all useful. This seems odd to me.

I'll agree that a bandanna made of a coorifice weave fabric, which, when held up to a light shows openings is not going to capture 100% of aerosols or droplets. Yet, even a bandanna will capture some.

Go to HomeDepot and pull out a furnace filter, they are generally about 18 x 18". Hold it up to a light and it does not appear to be very good at capturing anything. Yet, pull a used one out of a furnace and it's quite amazing--that extremely open weave filter captures quite a lot. It seems to me that capturing some is better than none. It seems that to you, capturing some is useless--therefore why bother.

Many/most masks will not completely stop viral transmission from an infected person who is shedding virus. The real question is more: “do facemasks, especially home-made ones, reduce viral transmission?”

My take is very, very simple. Yes, they do, even the ones made from JoAnne fabrics that you can “see daylight through.” The question: Will facemasks absolutely stop viral transmission, is also a simple one: “No.” Why “no?” Simply because there are too many variables. Three layers of JoAnne cotton fabrics most likely will not “see light.” Therefore, they are better than one layer. But is better, good enough? The answer is: Maybe, maybe not.

Note: You repeatedly mention "viruses" however there is zero evidence that I can find that shows that any researcher has found virions (single virus particles) floating about. Virus exists in a liquid-based system as such, they exist in our environment attached to mucus. As such particles (aerosols/droplets) is the issue--not virions. If virions (single particles) are exhaled those particles are about 0.12 microns (for Covid-19) even an N95 will only stop 95% of them (N95 = 95% of particles greater than 0.1 microns). Perhaps then, if even an N95 will not stop all, it would be best to simply not bother, as nurses, tending those who are infected with viral disease, or when assisting or performing surgical procedures to wear any N95 masks?

So you believe that we simply should throw out all face masks?

3 Votes

You all literally make me tired. LOL. There is not enough science to back this kind of recommendation. Period. Too many ifs and mays, not enough fact...and you absolutely can not extrapolate out our exposure profile to the general public...IF you are potentially asymptomatic, you MAY be able to transmit, and MAYBE a mask might help contain some droplets IF you by chance cough or sneeze -but you’re asymptomatic so how much sneezing/coughing is being done???, but virus particles of positive patients are found on the outside of the mask after sneezing anyway...and mask wearing does come with risks and side effects...no, the what if game doesn’t win imo or make sense. I’m turning off notifications now because this is just a circular conversation now.

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Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.

Face masks, including homemade ones, are effective COVID-19 protection, experts say

Mask effectiveness varies, but claims that cloth masks provide 0% protection aren’t accurate.

"The protection from cloth masks isn’t 0, and it’s definitely not 100, but the way to think about any of the masks and our overall approach is how do you put together all the pieces of the puzzle to give you a complete picture of minimizing the risk of transmission of COVID-19?" said Dr. Thomas Tsai, a surgeon and health policy researcher at Harvard’s school of public health. "Hand washing, wearing masks, and social distancing is part of it, but none of them alone. It’s how you put together these different tools to meet the task at hand. Wearing any mask is a very, very small price to pay to be safe and return to society."...

... One experiment from researchers at the National Institutes of Health used lasers to illuminate and measure how many droplets of saliva were released into the air by a person talking with and without a cloth facial covering.

As can be seen in a video of the experiment, a cluster of droplets appear in the air when the researcher speaks without a mask, but nearly all the particles are blocked when he does the same with a mask...

https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/politifact-face-masks-including-homemade-ones-are-effective-covid-19-protection-experts-say/

NEJM: Visualizing Speech Generated Oral Fluid Droplets with Laser Light Scattering

Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS),

... Our laser light scattering method not only provides real-time visual evidence for speech droplet emission, but also assesses their airborne lifetime. This direct visualization demonstrates how normal speech generates airborne droplets that can remain suspended for tens of minutes or longer and are eminently capable of transmitting disease in confined spaces...

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/22/11875

2 Votes
3 hours ago, blue_bug said:

There is not enough science to back this kind of recommendation.

Given that this is a novel virus there isn't much science to back anything but we are doing the best we can with what we know. Just for funsies let's follow your thought process. Because there isn't, in your opinion, enough science to back mask use by the general public let's stop wearing them. But hmmm, there isn't a lot of research into coughing and sneezing into our elbows either so let's chuck that practice as well. Social distancing? We don't know how much that helps so go ahead and hug your neighbor, especially if they are old. Asymptomatic carriers? Well darn it the science is unclear so I'm just going to assume that if I'm not coughing and febrile then I'm good to go and stop wearing a mask at work too. What about hand-washing? There's some science about that but we can't really quantify it so we can be on the fence about that too.

Expecting irrefutable scientific evidence of the efficacy of any of the measures currently being recommended for a novel virus that we have only been studying (in this country) for approximately 5 months and that has killed well over 100K Americans is unreasonable. So far nothing has been proven to be statistically effective. Hopefully all of these measures in concert will make a difference. Certainly doing none of them isn't the answer. Refusing to do what you can with what we know at this time to stop the spread because you don't believe in it is unconscionable. Is it overkill? Maybe. But what if it isn't?

7 Votes

Don’t know but the way I’m interpreting the data still doesn’t prove to me the need to wear a mask. I haven’t worn one for over a month. I take my kids out in public. I went on vacation recently. I don’t socially distance.

We live life like PRE- COVID.

Sorry, not sorry

P.S.

I do wash my hands ?

1 Votes
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
20 minutes ago, Thanksforthedonuts said:

Don’t know but the way I’m interpreting the data still doesn’t prove to me the need to wear a mask. I haven’t worn one for over a month. I take my kids out in public. I went on vacation recently. I don’t socially distance.

We live life like PRE- COVID.

Sorry, not sorry

P.S.

I do wash my hands ?

If the people around you are widely masking, your risk is still lowered. Right?

5 Votes
8 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

If the people around you are widely masking, your risk is still lowered. Right?

I never asked them to wear a mask. My only request would be for them to wash their hands as their mother taught them. I still see no need for healthy people to wear a mask. Data for asymptomatic (you know the ones without noticeable symptoms and who are NOT COUGHING) transmission is pretty low enough not to concern me.

1 Votes
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
18 minutes ago, Thanksforthedonuts said:

I never asked them to wear a mask. My only request would be for them to wash their hands as their mother taught them. I still see no need for healthy people to wear a mask. Data for asymptomatic (you know the ones without noticeable symptoms and who are NOT COUGHING) transmission is pretty low enough not to concern me.

Regardless of what you ask of others, if others around you widely mask when out when you near, your overall risk of casual exposure is reduced. This is the same principle that causes people to wear masks when working over vulnerable people, wounds or sterile fields.

4 Votes
7 hours ago, toomuchbaloney said:

Regardless of what you ask of others, if others around you widely mask when out when you near, your overall risk of casual exposure is reduced.

I feel like refusing to mask is akin to taking a job in a facility that has a union but refusing to join. You reap the benefits while everyone else pays the price.

6 Votes
Specializes in Occupational Health; Adult ICU.
22 hours ago, Thanksforthedonuts said:

Don’t know but the way I’m interpreting the data still doesn’t prove to me the need to wear a mask. I haven’t worn one for over a month. I take my kids out in public. I went on vacation recently. I don’t socially distance.


We live life like PRE- COVID.

Sorry, not sorry

“sorry, not sorry”


[ sawr-ee not sawr-ee ]


WHAT DOES SORRY NOT SORRY MEAN?


Sorry not sorry is a sarcastic way of acknowledging that someone might not like whatever you're saying or doing ... but you don't really care.


https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/sorry-not-sorry/

Are you really a nurse?

I get the disagreement, but really do not get the arrogant attitude, and that's just what it is.

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