CRNAs: We are the Answer

The American Association of Nurse Anesthetists makes a bold proclamation of their full practice, safety, independent capabilities, and economic advantage for our modern healthcare system. Specialties CRNA Article

Before we begin a discussion on the topic you should probably follow this link to the AANA's original statement.

Firstly, I have to disclose that I am in my third year of nurse anesthesia training preparing for graduation, so I am not a board certified CRNA yet. Anything I say is coming from the perspective of a new generation of CRNA DNP training which I've noted can be slightly different from those of older generations. I am also the elected political representative of my class throughout our program so I do stay more engaged and informed than some other anesthesia trainees. Last disclosure, I do serve the AANA and work on a committee that serves the board of directors.

Now, to understand where this new bold statement from the AANA came from I think it's necessary to understand it is in response to the ASA's statement about the Anesthesia Care Team last fall. Their statement unabashedly self-aggrandizes themselves and downplays CRNAs actual role as experts and independent anesthesia providers. In fact, they use wording that implies better education and training from their own assistants (AAs) than nurse anesthetists who has been providing safe competent anesthesia since the civil war.

Although, most CRNAs don't blame them for making a political statement like this promoting themselves and downplaying their competitors in the marketplace. That is the duty of a professional organization, to promote that organization. Anesthesia has been aggressively political since the early 1900s when physicians decided to start learning anesthesia and tried to make it illegal in California for a nurse anesthetist to continue practicing anesthesia. Who wants competitors if you think you can eliminate them, it just makes business sense.

After the political statement made last October by the ASA large amounts of CRNAs were outraged and demanded an immediate defending response from the AANA. The AANA is always careful and intentional in what it does, so they created a task force of influential and level headed CRNAs who would investigate the issue and come up with a diplomatic response. They spent 6 months discussing this and coming up with the response you are now reading. This statement was intentional and well thought out. It is supported and celebrated by a huge majority of CRNAs/SRNAs judging from responses in person and in private CRNA forums consisting of tens of thousands of CRNAs.

It's disconcerting that I have seen some negative comments online by people who aren't physicians. You would expect many physicians to react negatively to a non-physician provider talking about their education, training, and similar patient outcomes but it is odd to see some others ill-informed negativity.

The biggest confusing issue I see people have is that in the AANA's statement that is in response to the ASA's care team statement is that billing methods are often fraudulent. What many may not understand is that in a medical direction billing model (which is what the ASA is wanting everywhere) involves meeting 7 TEFRA requirements to bill for CMS. These requirements are very often not met even when physicians bill in medical direction, which is Medicare fraud. This is not just anecdotal. The ASA produced research they performed themselves that was published recognizing that a huge number of medical direction practices are not meeting the 7 TEFRA requirements. Medical direction benefits the physician because they can bill for 4 different cases at once while they are not providing the anesthesia but 4 different CRNAs are performing the anesthesia. You can see why they would want this to be a standard delivery method of anesthesia. Even when their own research shows they are fraudulently billing in many places they continue to push this model. This model is oftentimes the most restrictive and oppressive to CRNAs who choose to work with that anesthesia group. It is also one of the more costly models for hospitals to sustain, so it's not economically responsible or sustainable for many facilities.

CRNAs mention these issues with medical direction because it supports the movement nationwide for the collaborative model of anesthesia care. This model requires that both CRNAs and MDAs be independent full practice providers who work together on a team. They are equal partners and practice under their own license to provide safe high-quality anesthesia to their patients. In this model, there are no 7 TEFRA regulations so Medicare fraud is not an issue. The economic reason some in anesthesia will not like this anesthesia delivery model is that you can not bill for services of 4 CRNAs at once providing anesthesia. Each provider can only bill for their own anesthesia for a single case. It would do away with someone sitting in the break room drinking coffee while 4 other providers are working and earning you profit. You can see why certain people would not want this to happen.

I just wanted to clear that portion up about the AANA's statement so it had some context and people who are not in the anesthesia realm understand where that came from. Those of us in anesthesia are just so used to that issue I think we forget others are not informed about it.

What do you guys think about the new statement?

Wtb, where have you been!?

I was starting to get worried you deactivated your account.

You always bring clarity and reason to a discussion that is filled with anecdotes and extreme bias. Good to see you back.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
29 minutes ago, Bluebolt said:

Wtb, where have you been!?

I was starting to get worried you deactivated your account.

You always bring clarity and reason to a discussion that is filled with anecdotes and extreme bias. Good to see you back.

I went from deployment to coming home for 4 months to a 12 month remote assignment in another country. I am also dealing with PTSD issues from my last deployment. It has been a difficult transition getting back and then going to a remote assignment.

I try to catch up on the posts every few days, but my mind has been other things for awhile.

Specializes in CRNA.

Wtb, sorry to hear that. Hope you’re getting effective help. I can only imagine what you’ve experienced and I would suppose these issues all seem very trivial. God bless.

11 hours ago, loveanesthesia said:

This discussion reinforces something I’ve advocated in our state organization. CRNAs have to educate nursing about nurse anesthesia. We should not assume other nurses understand us. Of course there still will be nurses who don’t support independent CRNAs, but some just don’t understand us.

CRNAs are independent in my practice and it’s interesting to watch some travel RNs come into the OR as circulating nurses. Those who haven’t been exposed to independent CRNAs seem to fall into 2 camps. Those who are like “who knew” and ask questions and have an open mind. Others who are suspicious and are like “what’s going on here “ and seem to be resentful of the CRNAs autonomy. 

Every CRNA I have known has made comments to me that the anesthesiologists are too picky about high standards. If they would say something like that to me personally, who knows what their practice is like. This has been my experience in my professional life.

Maybe some of you CRNAs who proclaim that you are as good as anesthesiologists, should have worked with me, then my experience and opinion would have changed.

Believe me, I am not the least resentful of CRNAs, just don't have the confidence in them as I have expressed over and over. I had no desire to work autonomously.

Anyway, I am retired and living the dream on my farm in the country and the other months in my home on the oceanfront.

4 hours ago, wtbcrna said:

I went from deployment to coming home for 4 months to a 12 month remote assignment in another country. I am also dealing with PTSD issues from my last deployment. It has been a difficult transition getting back and then going to a remote assignment.

I try to catch up on the posts every few days, but my mind has been other things for awhile.

My son in law is in your shoes. He will be deployed soon for a remote assignment in a war torn country. He will come back changed, of course. My husband experienced this in Vietnam.

Blessings and positive thoughts coming your way. It's a very difficult place that you are in.

On 6/17/2019 at 8:16 PM, twinsmom788 said:

Every CRNA I have known has made comments to me that the anesthesiologists are too picky about high standards. If they would say something like that to me personally, who knows what their practice is like. This has been my experience in my professional life.

Maybe some of you CRNAs who proclaim that you are as good as anesthesiologists, should have worked with me, then my experience and opinion would have changed.

Believe me, I am not the least resentful of CRNAs, just don't have the confidence in them as I have expressed over and over. I had no desire to work autonomously.

Anyway, I am retired and living the dream on my farm in the country and the other months in my home on the oceanfront.

I am sorry, but your statement is so ludicrous, so absurd, so over the top ridiculous that I must call you out.

"Every CRNA I have know has made comments to me that the anesthesiologists are too picky about high standards."

This actually makes me think you are a troll. No CRNA has said that. Ever. Anywhere. We actually practice to the exact same standards, as there is only one standard.

9 hours ago, BigPappaCRNA said:

I am sorry, but your statement is so ludicrous, so absurd, so over the top ridiculous that I must call you out.

"Every CRNA I have know has made comments to me that the anesthesiologists are too picky about high standards."

This actually makes me think you are a troll. No CRNA has said that. Ever. Anywhere. We actually practice to the exact same standards, as there is only one standard.

Don't be sorry about expressing your thoughts and opinions. I truly wish I had not heard those comments myself. I've only known a very small number of CRNAs in my life. The majority of my OR experience was in a children's hospital that did not employ CRNAs.

I assure you that I am not a troll. Hearing ridiculous and ludicrous comments from surgeons, other RNs, LPNs, administrators in my very long career, has been a part of working in healthcare.

Reading this thread has opened my eyes for the better. Thank all of you for educating me.

And, I really like your screen name BigPappaCRNA.

"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life" - Winston Churchill

On 6/2/2019 at 4:18 PM, twinsmom788 said:

MD residents have touched many, many patients in their 4 years of medical school. One of my daughters was removing a skin issue in her first year of medical school ( first few weeks) in a derm clinic. Show me a BSN student or ICU nurse that has done that. I've been in both of those situations.

Medical students ( my daughters have delivered babies, worked in the OR, ER, etc...If you have not experienced a medical student's life then please think, before you speak, about "residents who have never touched a patient".

A large portion of my family are doctors as well, so this is anecdotal from them and also from my own experience having rotated with them and with residents. Medical students may touch the patient, but they don't make decisions. They shadow, hold retractors, maybe make an easy cut, do a few stitches, etc. I am sure your daughters have been present when a baby was delivered---maybe they even caught the baby. I doubt they were leading the birth process, and I doubt the attending was not hovering over their shoulder. They do parts of procedures under lots of supervision. The residents are the ones that are supposed to be learning, and so in the clinical settings, medical student experience often comes second.

As for anesthesia, first year interns come into anesthesia with very little anesthesia training (maybe a month or so with certain med schools). They don't know really how to prime IV tubing. They don't know any of the anesthesia meds other than a few lectures on the anesthetic gases. Yes, they have extensive medical training. Do you need to know tissue pathology and genetics to do anesthesia, though? No. A large chunk of their training, what they're tested on in Step 1-3 exams, is not necessary to their practice in anesthesia, whereas CRNA school is focused only on anesthesia. Do I think at the end of anesthesia residency, doctors often have more experience and medical knowledge? Yes. But largely because most residents I know work many more hours than the SRNAs. Even still, do I think that's training that is necessary to be an independent practitioner? No.

You can sit here and compare an ICU nurse to a medical student to a resident to an SRNA all day. At the end of the day, CRNAs do practice independently---completely independently---in many parts of the country. I live in Baltimore and there are facilities and hospitals here that are independent practice/bill QZ. Are people dying left and right because there's no MD? No. Anesthesia is very safe in the US and you put yourself at more risk getting into your car and driving than you do going under GA. At the end of the day, practice experience is what counts. (The art of emergence, for instance, is something that you develop on your own. Attendings even tell residents that it's not something they will really know how to do until they're out of residency and practicing on their own with less oversight.) Personally, do I want an AA, a CRNA, or an MD doing my anesthesia? I want the practitioner with more experience. I would want the AA with 5 years practicing over a CRNA with 1. I would want a practicing CRNA over an anesthesia resident with an MD behind his/her name.

^You're partially right about medical students in your first paragraph. Depends on the rotation/attending, they certainly do make decisions and put in orders. They at minimum come up with a differential and vocalize a plan for patients they round on to a resident or attending. That's simply part of medical training, to figure out the diagnosis and treatment plan. It's a no brainer that they aren't leading anything as a student, but twinsmom788 was simply defending the fact that residents do indeed touch patients.

Specializes in ICU, transport, CRNA.

I've no worries. I have never seen or heard of an MDA who would or could be on hand to do an epidural on a 16 year old Amish girl in active labor at a 12 bed rural critical access hospital like I did tonight.

I don't see there ever being enough physician anesthesia providers to service rural and underserved areas. They need us.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
On 6/2/2019 at 2:40 AM, ruralnurse84 said:

In my rural hospital, we only have CRNAs. They practice autonomously and are very good at what they do. One of them did my epidural while I was in labor and now that I work L&D, I work with them routinely. I can't remember the last time I came across an actual MD anesthesiologist. I think they should be able to work autonomously.

Here is the very likely reason why you only have CRNAs at your hospital.

https://www.aana.com/docs/default-source/fga-aana-com-web-documents-(all)/mya2017-05--1pager-rural-anesthesia-030717.pdf?sfvrsn=275c49b1_4

I have a friend from nursing school who went on to become an MD and has been trying to get back rural with no avail. Then she tells me about rural pass through and how CRNA lobbying power has effectively prevented her from going rural because the hospital is given funding to bring on CRNAs and they block MD/DOs from attempting to get similar funding from the government. But if you hear it from the CRNAs, they all want to paint physician as all of them wanting to live in the big city and not care about rural healthcare. But then you wonder about the internal medicine, and OB-Gynes, and Family practice physicians who all are rural physicians.

Very sad because the AANA's agenda really clouds the picture.