CRNAs: We are the Answer

The American Association of Nurse Anesthetists makes a bold proclamation of their full practice, safety, independent capabilities, and economic advantage for our modern healthcare system. Specialties CRNA Article

Before we begin a discussion on the topic you should probably follow this link to the AANA's original statement.

Firstly, I have to disclose that I am in my third year of nurse anesthesia training preparing for graduation, so I am not a board certified CRNA yet. Anything I say is coming from the perspective of a new generation of CRNA DNP training which I've noted can be slightly different from those of older generations. I am also the elected political representative of my class throughout our program so I do stay more engaged and informed than some other anesthesia trainees. Last disclosure, I do serve the AANA and work on a committee that serves the board of directors.

Now, to understand where this new bold statement from the AANA came from I think it's necessary to understand it is in response to the ASA's statement about the Anesthesia Care Team last fall. Their statement unabashedly self-aggrandizes themselves and downplays CRNAs actual role as experts and independent anesthesia providers. In fact, they use wording that implies better education and training from their own assistants (AAs) than nurse anesthetists who has been providing safe competent anesthesia since the civil war.

Although, most CRNAs don't blame them for making a political statement like this promoting themselves and downplaying their competitors in the marketplace. That is the duty of a professional organization, to promote that organization. Anesthesia has been aggressively political since the early 1900s when physicians decided to start learning anesthesia and tried to make it illegal in California for a nurse anesthetist to continue practicing anesthesia. Who wants competitors if you think you can eliminate them, it just makes business sense.

After the political statement made last October by the ASA large amounts of CRNAs were outraged and demanded an immediate defending response from the AANA. The AANA is always careful and intentional in what it does, so they created a task force of influential and level headed CRNAs who would investigate the issue and come up with a diplomatic response. They spent 6 months discussing this and coming up with the response you are now reading. This statement was intentional and well thought out. It is supported and celebrated by a huge majority of CRNAs/SRNAs judging from responses in person and in private CRNA forums consisting of tens of thousands of CRNAs.

It's disconcerting that I have seen some negative comments online by people who aren't physicians. You would expect many physicians to react negatively to a non-physician provider talking about their education, training, and similar patient outcomes but it is odd to see some others ill-informed negativity.

The biggest confusing issue I see people have is that in the AANA's statement that is in response to the ASA's care team statement is that billing methods are often fraudulent. What many may not understand is that in a medical direction billing model (which is what the ASA is wanting everywhere) involves meeting 7 TEFRA requirements to bill for CMS. These requirements are very often not met even when physicians bill in medical direction, which is Medicare fraud. This is not just anecdotal. The ASA produced research they performed themselves that was published recognizing that a huge number of medical direction practices are not meeting the 7 TEFRA requirements. Medical direction benefits the physician because they can bill for 4 different cases at once while they are not providing the anesthesia but 4 different CRNAs are performing the anesthesia. You can see why they would want this to be a standard delivery method of anesthesia. Even when their own research shows they are fraudulently billing in many places they continue to push this model. This model is oftentimes the most restrictive and oppressive to CRNAs who choose to work with that anesthesia group. It is also one of the more costly models for hospitals to sustain, so it's not economically responsible or sustainable for many facilities.

CRNAs mention these issues with medical direction because it supports the movement nationwide for the collaborative model of anesthesia care. This model requires that both CRNAs and MDAs be independent full practice providers who work together on a team. They are equal partners and practice under their own license to provide safe high-quality anesthesia to their patients. In this model, there are no 7 TEFRA regulations so Medicare fraud is not an issue. The economic reason some in anesthesia will not like this anesthesia delivery model is that you can not bill for services of 4 CRNAs at once providing anesthesia. Each provider can only bill for their own anesthesia for a single case. It would do away with someone sitting in the break room drinking coffee while 4 other providers are working and earning you profit. You can see why certain people would not want this to happen.

I just wanted to clear that portion up about the AANA's statement so it had some context and people who are not in the anesthesia realm understand where that came from. Those of us in anesthesia are just so used to that issue I think we forget others are not informed about it.

What do you guys think about the new statement?

Specializes in Anesthesia.
10 minutes ago, wtbcrna said:

Your experience is not the norm and doesn’t represent the western half of the US or the US in general. ACTs still make up the majority of anesthesia practices where the majority of MDAS will be “directing” and not doing any cases. Bad providers aren’t unique to either type of anesthesia provider. The biggest difference I’ve seen though is physicians can get away with being awful providers for a lot longer than CRNAs.
‘Yep, I’ve had circulators that did that too but would never think of doing that to an MDA. It shows how jaded and biased even nurses are to CRNAs.

Addressing your last line. The difference is, in an ACT practice, the CRNA is working under the license of the MD/DO and not just his/her license. So if something bad happens to the patient, then the MD/DO is ultimately responsible. Their name is on the chart as directing the anesthestic. The buck stops with them. So yeah, I am going to call the doc. We aren't talking of an independent CRNA practice here. Clearly if that were the case, and the CRNA told me that they didn't need help, I would leave it alone and not call anyone unless it started turning into a code situation.

Who is there to call unless they asked me to call for help from other CRNAs in an independent practice.

Again, I am out West. Not used to many CRNAs. Certainly not independent ones in my practice in the city.

What I don't understand is people who choose to work in an ACT practice and then complain that they can't be independent. I know there are many people stuck in geographic locations, but hell, most people have bosses in the real world. Deal with it, or go out where you can practice independently.

I personally can't wait to possibly one day practice independently.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
3 minutes ago, SuziQ1978 said:

You really aren't answering the question and are not acknowledging the AANA agenda of keeping docs outside of rural hospitals. She doesn't care about CRNA independence. She says have at it and is encouraging me to be one. She cares about finding a job in the country because she likes it there, hates big city traffic and people but has met roadblock after roadblock and then finds out about the rural passthrough and the AANA blocking her efforts.

I never said anywhere in my post that 'CRNAs are figthing for independence". Where did I say that? You clearly have a chip on your shoulder. I say that most docs and CRNAs get along just fine, you bring up the docs putting down CRNAs on SDN; I say that my friend wants to go rural but keeps getting blocked and CRNAs are gaining more and more autonomy you bring up "fighting for independence". Are you OK?

Is it a tit for tat with the AANA because they feel that anesthesiologists are being too restrictive for them?

1. The agenda is to maintain independence. The only reason the vast majority of MDAs would want to work in a rural setting is if the salaries went way up.

2. You’re trying to debate a topic you’re totally clueless about.

3. The real issues are what I stated the fact you don’t understand that shows you don’t understand the topic.

4. Do I have chip on my shoulder? Maybe, I do after working independently my whole career and having to put up with physicians and the ASA constantly degrading CRNAs and APRNS.

5. What is your purpose posting on here if it isn’t to argue and troll? You aren’t familiar with the topic and you keep taking about this one friend like that makes some kind of systematic argument. There are many rural mixed practices your friend could work at. Their argument that some of the practices are CRNA only is meaningless, if she wants to work in that kind of practice move to where the job is. There aren’t shortages of MDA openings except possibly the one or two geographic areas she is willing to work at.

6. The AANA and the ASA look after their membership. No, it’s not tit for tat because if it was the AANA is behind 10,000:1 at best. Rural practices are open to MDAS. What isn’t open is that rural pass through funding that the ASA has been fighting for for years, and the only reason they want it is to try convert more practices to ACT in order to get paid for not being in the OR while controlling CRNA practices and salaries.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
7 minutes ago, SuziQ1978 said:

Addressing your last line. The difference is, in an ACT practice, the CRNA is working under the license of the MD/DO and not just his/her license. So if something bad happens to the patient, then the MD/DO is ultimately responsible. Their name is on the chart as directing the anesthestic. The buck stops with them. So yeah, I am going to call the doc. We aren't talking of an independent CRNA practice here. Clearly if that were the case, and the CRNA told me that they didn't need help, I would leave it alone and not call anyone unless it started turning into a code situation.

Who is there to call unless they asked me to call for help from other CRNAs in an independent practice.

Again, I am out West. Not used to many CRNAs. Certainly not independent ones in my practice in the city.

What I don't understand is people who choose to work in an ACT practice and then complain that they can't be independent. I know there are many people stuck in geographic locations, but hell, most people have bosses in the real world. Deal with it, or go out where you can practice independently.

I personally can't wait to possibly one day practice independently.

Wrong again. CRNAS never work under someone else’s license. That is just another myth that physician groups, such as the ASA, like to spread.
That isn’t how the liability works in anesthesia. There are multiple legal precedents that show that isn’t true.
A general rule of thumb the more populated and popular the place is the lower likelihood of having independent CRNA practices. People often get stuck working in ACT practices d/t family reasons restricting them to one small geographical area. Working in an ACT is the equivalent of having a staff where you can have multiple different supervisors all in one day all telling you to do something a different way, if you haven’t experienced it then you shouldn’t be complaining about what it’s like. It’s nothing like having different surgeons either for every case.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
12 minutes ago, wtbcrna said:

1. The agenda is to maintain independence. The only reason the vast majority of MDAs would want to work in a rural setting is if the salaries went way up.

2. You’re trying to debate a topic you’re totally clueless about.

3. The real issues are what I stated the fact you don’t understand that shows you don’t understand the topic.

4. Do I have chip on my shoulder? Maybe, I do after working independently my whole career and having to put up with physicians and the ASA constantly degrading CRNAs and APRNS.

5. What is your purpose posting on here if it isn’t to argue and troll? You aren’t familiar with the topic and you keep taking about this one friend like that makes some kind of systematic argument. There are many rural mixed practices your friend could work at. Their argument that some of the practices are CRNA only is meaningless, if she wants to work in that kind of practice move to where the job is. There aren’t shortages of MDA openings except possibly the one or two geographic areas she is willing to work at.

6. The AANA and the ASA look after their membership. No, it’s not tit for tat because if it was the AANA is behind 10,000:1 at best. Rural practices are open to MDAS. What isn’t open is that rural pass through funding that the ASA has been fighting for for years, and the only reason they want it is to try convert more practices to ACT in order to get paid for not being in the OR while controlling CRNA practices and salaries.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions and generalizations. How do you know about what physicians want? Many don't care about CRNA independence. Leads to less bickering. Let them do their cases and vice versa.

Are you telling me that independent CRNAs in rural areas aren't billing the exact same way anesthesiologists are billing? And therefore making what an anesthesiologist would be making where he/she not blocked from going to many rural hospitals?

Thanks for admitting that the AANA is working to keep physicians out of rural practices. She's worked rural before, but again not too small of a hospital and left because it was too cold. Then she went out West and SouthWest and has met many roadblocks. There was a practice in the South that told her the "CRNA's are independent, but you have to sign their charts at the end of the day", that she turned down. Two states, multiple rural hospitals no headway.

3 minutes ago, wtbcrna said:

CRNAs never work under anyone else's license? Totally didn't know that. Then why is the doc in the room multiple times and checking and signing the CRNA chart?

And whether or not what you are saying is true, (gotta research that, thanks for the tidbit of knowledge) we all know who the lawyers are going to go after when a bad outcome happens. The ones who are perceived to have the deeper pockets. The docs. I am a nurse, and I always document when I notify the doctor about a concern regarding a patient. My CRNA friends tell me they do the same as well and also when they communicate with the surgeon about something. "Surgeon notified". It is to cover our butts.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
5 minutes ago, SuziQ1978 said:

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions and generalizations. How do you know about what physicians want? Many don't care about CRNA independence. Leads to less bickering. Let them do their cases and vice versa.

Are you telling me that independent CRNAs in rural areas aren't billing the exact same way anesthesiologists are billing? And therefore making what an anesthesiologist would be making where he/she not blocked from going to many rural hospitals?

Thanks for admitting that the AANA is working to keep physicians out of rural practices. She's worked rural before, but again not too small of a hospital and left because it was too cold. Then she went out West and SouthWest and has met many roadblocks. There was a practice in the South that told her the "CRNA's are independent, but you have to sign their charts at the end of the day", that she turned down. Two states, multiple rural hospitals no headway.

CRNAs never work under anyone else's license? Totally didn't know that. Then why is the doc in the room multiple times and checking and signing the CRNA chart?
CRNAs can Bill the same, but insurance

1. I know and have worked with a lot of MDAS. Also, the ASA is representative of what the majority of MDAs want/believe and one of their stated objectives is to have all CRNAs work under direction in ACT practices.

2. CRNAs often have to fight for reimbursement even from CMS and often only get a percentage of what MDAS would get for doing the exact same thing.

3. I didn’t admit anything. I told you that the objective is to maintain independence and if MDAS are willing to take the same salary as CRNAS and work in rural practices they could easily take over the majority of rural practices, but since they don’t want to do that they continue to fight for more money through government subsidies.

4. You are talking about opt out and CMS state requirements for billing and the surgeon signs the charts to designate they “supervised” in non-opt out states (supervision has a completely different meaning in anesthesia billing) and no they doesn’t increase their liability or make them liable for the anesthetics. It’s bureaucratic politics and currently suspended d/t the pandemic, which medical organizations had a fit about.

5. MDAs run room to room in ACT practices for billing purposes to try and meet the 7 TEFRA requirements, which is impossible with more than two patients and almost every medium to large ACT practice commits billing fraud on a daily basis.

Specializes in CRNA.
41 minutes ago, SuziQ1978 said:

The difference is, in an ACT practice, the CRNA is working under the license of the MD/DO and not just his/her license. So if something bad happens to the patient, then the MD/DO is ultimately responsible. Their name is on the chart as directing the anesthestic. The buck stops with them. So yeah, I am going to call the doc.

Absolutely not true. CRNAs are 100% responsible for their own practice regardless of medical direction or not. Some CRNAs have learned this the hard way. If the physician anesthesiologist tells you to do something that’s not good practice and you do it, that’s on you and not them.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
29 minutes ago, SuziQ1978 said:

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions and generalizations. How do you know about what physicians want? Many don't care about CRNA independence. Leads to less bickering. Let them do their cases and vice versa.

Are you telling me that independent CRNAs in rural areas aren't billing the exact same way anesthesiologists are billing? And therefore making what an anesthesiologist would be making where he/she not blocked from going to many rural hospitals?

Thanks for admitting that the AANA is working to keep physicians out of rural practices. She's worked rural before, but again not too small of a hospital and left because it was too cold. Then she went out West and SouthWest and has met many roadblocks. There was a practice in the South that told her the "CRNA's are independent, but you have to sign their charts at the end of the day", that she turned down. Two states, multiple rural hospitals no headway.

CRNAs never work under anyone else's license? Totally didn't know that. Then why is the doc in the room multiple times and checking and signing the CRNA chart?

And whether or not what you are saying is true, (gotta research that, thanks for the tidbit of knowledge) we all know who the lawyers are going to go after when a bad outcome happens. The ones who are perceived to have the deeper pockets. The docs. I am a nurse, and I always document when I notify the doctor about a concern regarding a patient. My CRNA friends tell me they do the same as well and also when they communicate with the surgeon about something. "Surgeon notified". It is to cover our butts.

1. We all have professional anesthesia . It’s dictated by the state the amount we have to have, which is the same for all anesthesia providers whether MDA or CRNA. The pockets are the same size, but the more pockets they can get into the more the possible payout. Also insurance even if you aren’t clearly in the wrong will often pay out a settlement to eliminate long and costly litigation.
2. Notifying the surgeon doesn’t cover you. It can help but it doesn’t eliminate liability. What it does eliminate is the surgeon saying they didn’t know and throwing you or someone else under the bus. CRNAs even in an ACT practice are still overall considered independent providers. We are no longer just nurses and held to totally different standards.

Specializes in Anesthesia.

I hear you on the last part. My friend hated supervising or doing ACT whenever she had to cover more than two rooms as well as pre op and post op. Felt like she was running around like a chicken with her head cut off and only does her own cases now. And yes, It's sometimes impossible to be in that many places at once when supervising.

Even though you may have a point about the majority of anesthesiologists, the AANA and some CRNAs are preventing people like my bestie from going rural because of pass through. People who don't care about CRNA independence. I don't claim to know what most docs or CRNAs think unlike you, but the politics gets in the way.

You aren't addressing the fact that independent CRNAs out in the rural areas are not making average CRNA salary. They are making much more with subsidies from rural passthrough and billing the insurance companies directly.

She's a partner in her practice and she's dealt with insurance company negotiations and in her dealings with insurance she's been told that they reimburse the same as the reimburse the CRNAs. There are more and more CRNAs are moving to our town (large group sold out). Didn't know that you have to fight to be reimbursed equally and she may eventually end up supervising again which she hates.

From my understanding, about twenty states don't require any physician involvement with CRNAs at all. Why then can't the hospitals just get rid of all the docs and keep the CRNAs?

Specializes in Anesthesia.
8 minutes ago, loveanesthesia said:

Absolutely not true. CRNAs are 100% responsible for their own practice regardless of medical direction or not. Some CRNAs have learned this the hard way. If the physician anesthesiologist tells you to do something that’s not good practice and you do it, that’s on you and not them.

Didn't know this. Not what I have heard from my friend. She has had friends who work in the couple of ACT hospitals in town been involved in lawsuits involving CRNAs who didn't call for help when they should have and ended up in a bad outcome.

Whatever the case, at minimum both the doc and the CRNA are liable in a bad outcome in an ACT model correct? Not only just the CRNA who is in the room the entire time.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
9 minutes ago, SuziQ1978 said:

I hear you on the last part. My friend hated supervising or doing ACT whenever she had to cover more than two rooms as well as pre op and post op. Felt like she was running around like a chicken with her head cut off and only does her own cases now. And yes, It's sometimes impossible to be in that many places at once when supervising.

Even though you may have a point about the majority of anesthesiologists, the AANA and some CRNAs are preventing people like my bestie from going rural because of pass through. People who don't care about CRNA independence. I don't claim to know what most docs or CRNAs think unlike you, but the politics gets in the way.

You aren't addressing the fact that independent CRNAs out in the rural areas are not making average CRNA salary. They are making much more with subsidies from rural passthrough and billing the insurance companies directly.

She's a partner in her practice and she's dealt with insurance company negotiations and in her dealings with insurance she's been told that they reimburse the same as the reimburse the CRNAs. There are more and more CRNAs are moving to our town (large group sold out). Didn't know that you have to fight to be reimbursed equally and she may eventually end up supervising again which she hates.

From my understanding, about twenty states don't require any physician involvement with CRNAs at all. Why then can't the hospitals just get rid of all the docs and keep the CRNAs?

1. That is per the ASA studies on ACTs and meeting billing requirements.

2. Salaries are lower in ACT practices generally because CRNAs are employees while the MDAs control and own the practices. It also goes back to the market where almost everyone wants to live/work in the city but almost no one wants to work in rural areas. You can also pay CRNAs more when you eliminate redundant anesthesia providers, which is what ACT practices promote.

3. My understanding is the rural pass through money goes to the hospitals not directly to CRNAs.

4. Your friend is billing the insurance directly also. Does it matter? Rural practices don’t have the same volume and you are often getting paid for being on call up to 50% of the year not because of the insurance/CMS reimbursements.

5. There are 1-2 states that require MDA involvement. Opt out and non-opt out states are only about billing CMS and is easily worked around in most states by the surgeon signing a prefilled order sheet requesting anesthesia. When you don’t take care of Medicare patients then it’s a non-issue at all and except for those 1-2 states you don’t even have to worry about having the order/sign off for anesthesia.

https://www.aana.com/advocacy/state-government-affairs/federal-supervision-rule-opt-out-information/fact-sheet-concerning-state-opt-outs

6. Hospitals can and have gone to all CRNA or all MDA practices, but no matter the rhetoric there isn’t enough CRNAs or MDAs by themselves to do all the anesthetics in the USA.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
21 minutes ago, SuziQ1978 said:

Didn't know this. Not what I have heard from my friend. She has had friends who work in the couple of ACT hospitals in town been involved in lawsuits involving CRNAs who didn't call for help when they should have and ended up in a bad outcome.

Whatever the case, at minimum both the doc and the CRNA are liable in a bad outcome in an ACT model correct? Not only just the CRNA who is in the room the entire time.

This isn’t true. You are trying to take an extremely complicated topic and simplify it.
1. When and if a CRNA or MDA did not follow facility guidelines (this what usually happens in ACT practices where they are found liable d/t not calling)or was determined to not have met standard of care they can be held liable. The MDA in an act is almost always initially going to be named in the lawsuit but that doesn’t determine if they are going to be held liable for example if the MDA and CRNA agreed on one type of anesthetic plan but the CRNA did something totally different without consulting the MDA and something bad happened d/t that plan it’s not as likely the MDA will be held liable.

SuziQ,

We do not care if MDAs tried to go to rural pass through hospitals and work like we do, because none of them ever will. There is not a single MDA in the country who would choose to work 24/7 one week on, one week off, for 220K a year, as a 1099 provider. They would NOT be billing. That is what the pay is. And it is the federal government stepping up with the money to pay for the CRNAs to be in house, for those hours, for that salary. CRNAs are not out there billing their cases, most of them are on salary. If they were billing for their cases, as few cases as are being done, they would be making even less, and again, there is not an MDA in the country that would choose to do that.