CRNAs: We are the Answer

The American Association of Nurse Anesthetists makes a bold proclamation of their full practice, safety, independent capabilities, and economic advantage for our modern healthcare system. Specialties CRNA Article

Before we begin a discussion on the topic you should probably follow this link to the AANA's original statement.

Firstly, I have to disclose that I am in my third year of nurse anesthesia training preparing for graduation, so I am not a board certified CRNA yet. Anything I say is coming from the perspective of a new generation of CRNA DNP training which I've noted can be slightly different from those of older generations. I am also the elected political representative of my class throughout our program so I do stay more engaged and informed than some other anesthesia trainees. Last disclosure, I do serve the AANA and work on a committee that serves the board of directors.

Now, to understand where this new bold statement from the AANA came from I think it's necessary to understand it is in response to the ASA's statement about the Anesthesia Care Team last fall. Their statement unabashedly self-aggrandizes themselves and downplays CRNAs actual role as experts and independent anesthesia providers. In fact, they use wording that implies better education and training from their own assistants (AAs) than nurse anesthetists who has been providing safe competent anesthesia since the civil war.

Although, most CRNAs don't blame them for making a political statement like this promoting themselves and downplaying their competitors in the marketplace. That is the duty of a professional organization, to promote that organization. Anesthesia has been aggressively political since the early 1900s when physicians decided to start learning anesthesia and tried to make it illegal in California for a nurse anesthetist to continue practicing anesthesia. Who wants competitors if you think you can eliminate them, it just makes business sense.

After the political statement made last October by the ASA large amounts of CRNAs were outraged and demanded an immediate defending response from the AANA. The AANA is always careful and intentional in what it does, so they created a task force of influential and level headed CRNAs who would investigate the issue and come up with a diplomatic response. They spent 6 months discussing this and coming up with the response you are now reading. This statement was intentional and well thought out. It is supported and celebrated by a huge majority of CRNAs/SRNAs judging from responses in person and in private CRNA forums consisting of tens of thousands of CRNAs.

It's disconcerting that I have seen some negative comments online by people who aren't physicians. You would expect many physicians to react negatively to a non-physician provider talking about their education, training, and similar patient outcomes but it is odd to see some others ill-informed negativity.

The biggest confusing issue I see people have is that in the AANA's statement that is in response to the ASA's care team statement is that billing methods are often fraudulent. What many may not understand is that in a medical direction billing model (which is what the ASA is wanting everywhere) involves meeting 7 TEFRA requirements to bill for CMS. These requirements are very often not met even when physicians bill in medical direction, which is Medicare fraud. This is not just anecdotal. The ASA produced research they performed themselves that was published recognizing that a huge number of medical direction practices are not meeting the 7 TEFRA requirements. Medical direction benefits the physician because they can bill for 4 different cases at once while they are not providing the anesthesia but 4 different CRNAs are performing the anesthesia. You can see why they would want this to be a standard delivery method of anesthesia. Even when their own research shows they are fraudulently billing in many places they continue to push this model. This model is oftentimes the most restrictive and oppressive to CRNAs who choose to work with that anesthesia group. It is also one of the more costly models for hospitals to sustain, so it's not economically responsible or sustainable for many facilities.

CRNAs mention these issues with medical direction because it supports the movement nationwide for the collaborative model of anesthesia care. This model requires that both CRNAs and MDAs be independent full practice providers who work together on a team. They are equal partners and practice under their own license to provide safe high-quality anesthesia to their patients. In this model, there are no 7 TEFRA regulations so Medicare fraud is not an issue. The economic reason some in anesthesia will not like this anesthesia delivery model is that you can not bill for services of 4 CRNAs at once providing anesthesia. Each provider can only bill for their own anesthesia for a single case. It would do away with someone sitting in the break room drinking coffee while 4 other providers are working and earning you profit. You can see why certain people would not want this to happen.

I just wanted to clear that portion up about the AANA's statement so it had some context and people who are not in the anesthesia realm understand where that came from. Those of us in anesthesia are just so used to that issue I think we forget others are not informed about it.

What do you guys think about the new statement?

Specializes in Anesthesia.
1 minute ago, SuziQ1978 said:

I am talking about the multiple less than 100 bed hospitals that she has called that have told her that they don't use physicians. Only CRNAs. So how is this not blocking if the hospitals won't even consider her because they have a contract with CRNAs? I don't think they are smaller than 25 beds but they have been less than 100. And when she looks at practices they say "Independent CRNA only practices".

Those dots connect just fine.

It’s easier to tell her that than argue why they do it and that they won’t pay her anymore than the CRNAS. By the way all your information is secondhand hearsay.

1 Votes
Specializes in Anesthesia.
1 minute ago, wtbcrna said:

I just came from what would be considered a CAH. I had a gsw to the neck, a 19mo pediatric death in the ER that I had to lifeflight with, hangings, someone got drunk and fell out of 4 story window, workers falling off of three story scaffolding , GI bleed with only 2 units of blood in the hospital, MVAs, and lots of people coming to the OR with unknown etiologies that end up being pain to deal with it in the OR. That was all in less than years time. It isn’t about the volume but the amount resources you have to deal with it. In a CAH you’re it and you do it all often as the only anesthesia provider.

Sounds exciting. What is a typical day like? How many hours are you actually working versus being "available" on pager?

I mean if one is making 220-250 and not working too much but constantly on pager that may suck more, than just working a regular 7-10 hour day regularly.

I don't know how much you all are working. At her 100 bed hospital it was fairly busy but not bad but now she works a lot in the West Coast and is sick of the big city and would like something like what she had at the 100 bed hospital, maybe slightly slower. She hates the city life.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
Just now, SuziQ1978 said:

Sounds exciting. What is a typical day like? How many hours are you actually working versus being "available" on pager?

I mean if one is making 220-250 and not working too much but constantly on pager that may suck more, than just working a regular 7-10 hour day regularly.

I don't know how much you all are working. At her 100 bed hospital it was fairly busy but not bad but now she works a lot in the West Coast and is sick of the big city and would like something like what she had at the 100 bed hospital, maybe slightly slower. She hates the city life.

2 CRNAS working during scheduled cases. 1 week of call at a time. There is general surgery/GI, ortho, and OMFS. There was normally 2-4 cases M-Th. You don’t work in CAH because you want excitement. The majority of us go there for quality of life job.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
2 minutes ago, wtbcrna said:

It’s easier to tell her that than argue why they do it and that they won’t pay her anymore than the CRNAS. By the way all your information is secondhand hearsay.

I know for a fact that there are rural CRNAs who have independent practices that are "CRNA only" that are making 350-450k. So you guys can stop saying that all you are making is 220K and being on call 24/7. Maybe those CRNAs weren't at rural access hospitals but they were rural enough to block MDs from joining and have 'CRNA only practices".

Let's be honest on that one. I am sure there are plenty of those practices. Some of those hospitals do not hire the CRNAs as we all know.

While there may be a lot of "hearsay" from my friend, I also have CRNA friends who keep me informed.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
2 minutes ago, wtbcrna said:

2 CRNAS working during scheduled cases. 1 week of call at a time. There is general surgery/GI, ortho, and OMFS. There was normally 2-4 cases M-Th. You don’t work in CAH because you want excitement. The majority of us go there for quality of life job.

I’m finding it hard to believe that your friend is looking that hard when I can do a 30 second search and find rural anesthesiologists jobs.

https://www.gaswork.com/search/Anesthesiologist/Job

1 Votes
Specializes in Anesthesia.
1 minute ago, wtbcrna said:

2 CRNAS working during scheduled cases. 1 week of call at a time. There is general surgery/GI, ortho, and OMFS. There was normally 2-4 cases M-Th. You don’t work in CAH because you want excitement. The majority of us go there for quality of life job.

When you are on call, even though you are technically free you are tethered which causes it to be a lower quality of life for some people. Versus working 7-10 hours a day and being on call once a week.

I don't know. I guess if you know that you aren't gonna get called in, your anxiety disappears. I personally prefer just working straight shifts that I am used to. I am not sold on the whole CRNA thing myself yet if I gotta be on call but I know in the cities there are plenty of practices that are all shift work.

1 minute ago, wtbcrna said:

I’m finding it hard to believe that your friend is looking that hard when I can do a 30 second search and find rural anesthesiologists jobs.

https://www.gaswork.com/search/Anesthesiologist/Job

She's geographically limited to two states/areas where her family is. She has looked.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
3 minutes ago, SuziQ1978 said:

I know for a fact that there are rural CRNAs who have independent practices that are "CRNA only" that are making 350-450k. So you guys can stop saying that all you are making is 220K and being on call 24/7. Maybe those CRNAs weren't at rural access hospitals but they were rural enough to block MDs from joining and have 'CRNA only practices".

Let's be honest on that one. I am sure there are plenty of those practices. Some of those hospitals do not hire the CRNAs as we all know.

While there may be a lot of "hearsay" from my friend, I also have CRNA friends who keep me informed.

Making 350-450k is not usual and you can see the AANA annual compensation and benefits summary to verify that for yourself. The CRNAs that usually make that much are usually partners/owners and also specialize in pain. You can also look on gaswork.com to verify the salaries being offered also.
All of your information is secondhand hearsay. Have you verified the salaries from any independent sources yourself?

3 minutes ago, SuziQ1978 said:

When you are on call, even though you are technically free you are tethered which causes it to be a lower quality of life for some people. Versus working 7-10 hours a day and being on call once a week.

I don't know. I guess if you know that you aren't gonna get called in, your anxiety disappears. I personally prefer just working straight shifts that I am used to. I am not sold on the whole CRNA thing myself yet if I gotta be on call but I know in the cities there are plenty of practices that are all shift work.

She's geographically limited to two states/areas where her family is. She has looked.

Her being limited has nothing to do with AANA or CRNAs, if she wants a specific type of job she will have to compromise.

1 Votes
19 hours ago, SuziQ1978 said:

When you are on call, even though you are technically free you are tethered which causes it to be a lower quality of life for some people. Versus working 7-10 hours a day and being on call once a week.

I don't know. I guess if you know that you aren't gonna get called in, your anxiety disappears. I personally prefer just working straight shifts that I am used to. I am not sold on the whole CRNA thing myself yet if I gotta be on call but I know in the cities there are plenty of practices that are all shift work.

She's geographically limited to two states/areas where her family is. She has looked.

Doesn't sound like CRNAs locked her out. It sounds like she locked herself out.

2 Votes
19 hours ago, SuziQ1978 said:

I know for a fact that there are rural CRNAs who have independent practices that are "CRNA only" that are making 350-450k. So you guys can stop saying that all you are making is 220K and being on call 24/7. Maybe those CRNAs weren't at rural access hospitals but they were rural enough to block MDs from joining and have 'CRNA only practices".

Let's be honest on that one. I am sure there are plenty of those practices. Some of those hospitals do not hire the CRNAs as we all know.

While there may be a lot of "hearsay" from my friend, I also have CRNA friends who keep me informed.

There is no conspiracy. She is not "Blocked". If a CRNA group has the contract right now, they have the contract. If an MDA group had the contract, they would have the contract. If she gets together next time the contract comes up for renewal, and puts in a competitive bid, the contract could be hers. But most MDA's don't want to do that, because they want to do less, or get a subsidy, or charged additionally, because they feel they should make more than CRNAs. And yes, they do not want to be on call for a week at a time, 24/7. Unless one is in a very busy pracitce, anywhere, they do not want any part of a "eat what you kill" practice setting.

2 Votes
On 6/17/2019 at 10:29 AM, loveanesthesia said:

This discussion reinforces something I’ve advocated in our state organization. CRNAs have to educate nursing about nurse anesthesia. We should not assume other nurses understand us. Of course there still will be nurses who don’t support independent CRNAs, but some just don’t understand us.

CRNAs are independent in my practice and it’s interesting to watch some travel RNs come into the OR as circulating nurses. Those who haven’t been exposed to independent CRNAs seem to fall into 2 camps. Those who are like “who knew” and ask questions and have an open mind. Others who are suspicious and are like “what’s going on here “ and seem to be resentful of the CRNAs autonomy.

That is so correct! We need to educate other nurses.

Some of them are just jealous about the autonomy of CRNA, which turns into hate. They never had such an autonomy as a nurse in their whole lives. They tend to bad-mouth CRNAs.

Specializes in Dialysis.
On 5/29/2019 at 11:05 PM, caliotter3 said:

This situation is an argument regarding the propriety of women in the armed services and not necessarily confined to the CRNA community. Hmm, when I was on active duty I certainly don't remember breastfeeding getting me out of anything. Guess I missed a modern perk.

I guess I did too...