CRNAs: We are the Answer

The American Association of Nurse Anesthetists makes a bold proclamation of their full practice, safety, independent capabilities, and economic advantage for our modern healthcare system. Specialties CRNA Article

Before we begin a discussion on the topic you should probably follow this link to the AANA's original statement.

Firstly, I have to disclose that I am in my third year of nurse anesthesia training preparing for graduation, so I am not a board certified CRNA yet. Anything I say is coming from the perspective of a new generation of CRNA DNP training which I've noted can be slightly different from those of older generations. I am also the elected political representative of my class throughout our program so I do stay more engaged and informed than some other anesthesia trainees. Last disclosure, I do serve the AANA and work on a committee that serves the board of directors.

Now, to understand where this new bold statement from the AANA came from I think it's necessary to understand it is in response to the ASA's statement about the Anesthesia Care Team last fall. Their statement unabashedly self-aggrandizes themselves and downplays CRNAs actual role as experts and independent anesthesia providers. In fact, they use wording that implies better education and training from their own assistants (AAs) than nurse anesthetists who has been providing safe competent anesthesia since the civil war.

Although, most CRNAs don't blame them for making a political statement like this promoting themselves and downplaying their competitors in the marketplace. That is the duty of a professional organization, to promote that organization. Anesthesia has been aggressively political since the early 1900s when physicians decided to start learning anesthesia and tried to make it illegal in California for a nurse anesthetist to continue practicing anesthesia. Who wants competitors if you think you can eliminate them, it just makes business sense.

After the political statement made last October by the ASA large amounts of CRNAs were outraged and demanded an immediate defending response from the AANA. The AANA is always careful and intentional in what it does, so they created a task force of influential and level headed CRNAs who would investigate the issue and come up with a diplomatic response. They spent 6 months discussing this and coming up with the response you are now reading. This statement was intentional and well thought out. It is supported and celebrated by a huge majority of CRNAs/SRNAs judging from responses in person and in private CRNA forums consisting of tens of thousands of CRNAs.

It's disconcerting that I have seen some negative comments online by people who aren't physicians. You would expect many physicians to react negatively to a non-physician provider talking about their education, training, and similar patient outcomes but it is odd to see some others ill-informed negativity.

The biggest confusing issue I see people have is that in the AANA's statement that is in response to the ASA's care team statement is that billing methods are often fraudulent. What many may not understand is that in a medical direction billing model (which is what the ASA is wanting everywhere) involves meeting 7 TEFRA requirements to bill for CMS. These requirements are very often not met even when physicians bill in medical direction, which is Medicare fraud. This is not just anecdotal. The ASA produced research they performed themselves that was published recognizing that a huge number of medical direction practices are not meeting the 7 TEFRA requirements. Medical direction benefits the physician because they can bill for 4 different cases at once while they are not providing the anesthesia but 4 different CRNAs are performing the anesthesia. You can see why they would want this to be a standard delivery method of anesthesia. Even when their own research shows they are fraudulently billing in many places they continue to push this model. This model is oftentimes the most restrictive and oppressive to CRNAs who choose to work with that anesthesia group. It is also one of the more costly models for hospitals to sustain, so it's not economically responsible or sustainable for many facilities.

CRNAs mention these issues with medical direction because it supports the movement nationwide for the collaborative model of anesthesia care. This model requires that both CRNAs and MDAs be independent full practice providers who work together on a team. They are equal partners and practice under their own license to provide safe high-quality anesthesia to their patients. In this model, there are no 7 TEFRA regulations so Medicare fraud is not an issue. The economic reason some in anesthesia will not like this anesthesia delivery model is that you can not bill for services of 4 CRNAs at once providing anesthesia. Each provider can only bill for their own anesthesia for a single case. It would do away with someone sitting in the break room drinking coffee while 4 other providers are working and earning you profit. You can see why certain people would not want this to happen.

I just wanted to clear that portion up about the AANA's statement so it had some context and people who are not in the anesthesia realm understand where that came from. Those of us in anesthesia are just so used to that issue I think we forget others are not informed about it.

What do you guys think about the new statement?

Specializes in Anesthesia.

So what are these CRNAs in independent practices making? I mean is 300K reasonable? My friend is not looking to make a mil. Just looking to get closer to her family members spread amongst a couple of states. Living in the country is cheap. If CRNAs are making 200-250K in the city as salaried employees I don't see why they can't make even double that when no one is skimming off the top and giving them a salary.

I suppose that if docs in the cities are getting subsidies from the hospitals then the CRNAs could very well be asking for and getting subsidies too. Are they not? Does rural passthrough make it mandatory for the CRNAs to be hired by the hospital?

The docs and CRNAs are all billing the insurance companies, and getting reimbursed the same, but yet talk about how cost effective and cheaper they are. Would you call that honest or disingenous?

CRNAs are only cheaper if they are on a salary not billing the insurance themselves, but are keeping many MDs from the rural areas while saying that MDs don't want to be in the rural areas so CRNAs are left to fill the void. Well I have seen second hand how they are kept away.

Look, I am thinking of CRNA school because I am in my forties and my friend tells me that the MD route will not give me a good ROI compared to the CRNA route. I am all for it, but I also see her frustrations. My CRNA friends in the ACT model only complain about certain jerk docs. For the most part, they are happy and are treated well.

2 minutes ago, BigPappaCRNA said:

SuziQ,

We do not care if MDAs tried to go to rural pass through hospitals and work like we do, because none of them ever will. There is not a single MDA in the country who would choose to work 24/7 one week on, one week off, for 220K a year, as a 1099 provider. They would NOT be billing. That is what the pay is. And it is the federal government stepping up with the money to pay for the CRNAs to be in house, for those hours, for that salary. CRNAs are not out there billing their cases, most of them are on salary. If they were billing for their cases, as few cases as are being done, they would be making even less, and again, there is not an MDA in the country that would choose to do that.

How big are these rural pass through hospitals?

20-25 beds. I believe they have to do less than 800 cases a year, to qualify as a pass through. Again, that is why the feds pay for CRNAs to cover the rural hospital, because there is no billing and they are not getting rich and there is not an MDA around that will work 24/7 a week at a time for 220K.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
7 minutes ago, wtbcrna said:

This isn’t true. You are trying to take an extremely complicated topic and simplify it.
1. When and if a CRNA or MDA did not follow facility guidelines (this what usually happens in ACT practices where they are found liable d/t not calling)or was determined to not have met standard of care they can be held liable. The MDA in an act is almost always initially going to be named in the lawsuit but that doesn’t determine if they are going to be held liable for example if the MDA and CRNA agreed on one type of anesthetic plan but the CRNA did something totally different without consulting the MDA and something bad happened d/t that plan it’s not as likely the MDA will be held liable.

Maybe it is complicated, I give you that. But we may be talking of different scenarios. I am saying in a situation where the CRNA didn't call for help until it was too late.

Not the CRNA going rogue and doing their own thing. I would assume the doc would put down the anesthetic plan to cover themselves and then hopefully get dropped.

In that scenario, the doc and the CRNA's would both be held liable no?

Specializes in Anesthesia.
6 minutes ago, SuziQ1978 said:

So what are these CRNAs in independent practices making? I mean is 300K reasonable? My friend is not looking to make a mil. Just looking to get closer to her family members spread amongst a couple of states. Living in the country is cheap. If CRNAs are making 200-250K in the city as salaried employees I don't see why they can't make even double that when no one is skimming off the top and giving them a salary.

I suppose that if docs in the cities are getting subsidies from the hospitals then the CRNAs could very well be asking for and getting subsidies too. Are they not? Does rural passthrough make it mandatory for the CRNAs to be hired by the hospital?

The docs and CRNAs are all billing the insurance companies, and getting reimbursed the same, but yet talk about how cost effective and cheaper they are. Would you call that honest or disingenous?

CRNAs are only cheaper if they are on a salary not billing the insurance themselves, but are keeping many MDs from the rural areas while saying that MDs don't want to be in the rural areas so CRNAs are left to fill the void. Well I have seen second hand how they are kept away.

Look, I am thinking of CRNA school because I am in my forties and my friend tells me that the MD route will not give me a good ROI compared to the CRNA route. I am all for it, but I also see her frustrations. My CRNA friends in the ACT model only complain about certain jerk docs. For the most part, they are happy and are treated well.

If you want to be a CRNA and are interested in independent practice don’t talk to MDAs about it go shadow independent CRNAs.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
4 minutes ago, BigPappaCRNA said:

20-25 beds. I believe they have to do less than 800 cases a year, to qualify as a pass through. Again, that is why the feds pay for CRNAs to cover the rural hospital, because there is no billing and they are not getting rich and there is not an MDA around that will work 24/7 a week at a time for 220K.

Interesting. So if you are saying that they are hired by the hospital, then you are right. I know she has contacted hospitals that are less than 100 beds, but not as small as 25 and has been told that "we don't work with anesthesiologists just CRNAs"

I could work for 220. She was looking for more like 300K.

2 minutes ago, wtbcrna said:
Specializes in Anesthesia.
7 minutes ago, SuziQ1978 said:

Maybe it is complicated, I give you that. But we may be talking of different scenarios. I am saying in a situation where the CRNA didn't call for help until it was too late.

Not the CRNA going rogue and doing their own thing. I would assume the doc would put down the anesthetic plan to cover themselves and then hopefully get dropped.

In that scenario, the doc and the CRNA's would both be held liable no?

1. If you are interested see closed claim cases and “let the record show” book by the AANA if you can find a copy that will explain the topic. You can also do searches on the AANA.

2. Calling for help or not calling for help doesn’t determine liability

Specializes in Anesthesia.
Just now, wtbcrna said:

1. If you are interested see closed claim cases and “let the record show” book by the AANA if you can find a copy that will explain the topic. You can also do searches on the AANA.

2. Calling for help or not calling for help doesn’t determine liability

Thanks. Will do. Good night.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
8 minutes ago, SuziQ1978 said:

Interesting. So if you are saying that they are hired by the hospital, then you are right. I know she has contacted hospitals that are less than 100 beds, but not as small as 25 and has been told that "we don't work with anesthesiologists just CRNAs"

I could work for 220. She was looking for more like 300K.

You aren’t talking about the same things. A critical access

We are talking two different things. You have to be critical access hospital to even get the pass through money, which is for hospitals with less than 25 beds. your friend hasn’t been effected at all if she is only been looking at hospitals over 25 beds. She is being effected solely by market economics.

https://www.ruralhealthinfo.org/topics/critical-access-hospitals

https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/7021904954.pdf

Specializes in Anesthesia.
1 minute ago, wtbcrna said:

We are talking two different things. You have to be critical access hospital to even get the pass through money, which is for hospitals with less than 25 beds. your friend hasn’t been effected at all if she is only been looking at hospitals over 25 beds. She is being effected solely by market economics.

https://www.ruralhealthinfo.org/topics/critical-access-hospitals

https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/7021904954.pdf

Forget the money. A 25 bed hospital sounds boring as heck. I mean how complicated a case are they doing there? How many cases is someone doing there? It sounds completely and utterly boring. Twiddling my thumbs kind of money. I know she wants to slow down some, but she doesn't want to be bored out of her mind.

So she has been blocked by CRNAs who simply got there first before she did. WOW!.

5 minutes ago, SuziQ1978 said:

Forget the money. A 25 bed hospital sounds boring as heck. I mean how complicated a case are they doing there? How many cases is someone doing there? It sounds completely and utterly boring. Twiddling my thumbs kind of money. I know she wants to slow down some, but she doesn't want to be bored out of her mind.

So she has been blocked by CRNAs who simply got there first before she did. WOW!!.

You connect dots which just don't connect. She has not been "blocked" by CRNAs at all. Period. You just said she would never want to work for the money that we do, or maintain the lifestyle and practice that we do. So how did she get "blocked." If you are saying that she found a job that she wishes she had, but others already had the job, how is that different than any other job in the country?

Specializes in Anesthesia.
7 minutes ago, SuziQ1978 said:

Forget the money. A 25 bed hospital sounds boring as heck. I mean how complicated a case are they doing there? How many cases is someone doing there? It sounds completely and utterly boring. Twiddling my thumbs kind of money. I know she wants to slow down some, but she doesn't want to be bored out of her mind.

So she has been blocked by CRNAs who simply got there first before she did. WOW!!.

I just came from what would be considered a CAH. I had a gsw to the neck, a 19mo pediatric death in the ER that I had to lifeflight with, hangings, someone got drunk and fell out of 4 story window, workers falling off of three story scaffolding , GI bleed with only 2 units of blood in the hospital, MVAs, and lots of people coming to the OR with unknown etiologies that end up being pain to deal with it in the OR. That was all in less than years time. It isn’t about the volume but the amount resources you have to deal with it. In a CAH you’re it and you do it all often as the only anesthesia provider.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
3 minutes ago, BigPappaCRNA said:

You connect dots which just don't connect. She has not been "blocked" by CRNAs at all. Period. You just said she would never want to work for the money that we do, or maintain the lifestyle and practice that we do. So how did she get "blocked." If you are saying that she found a job that she wishes she had, but others already had the job, how is that different than any other job in the country?

I am talking about the multiple less than 100 bed hospitals that she has called that have told her that they don't use physicians. Only CRNAs. So how is this not blocking if the hospitals won't even consider her because they have a contract with CRNAs? I don't think they are smaller than 25 beds but they have been less than 100. And when she looks at practices they say "Independent CRNA only practices".

Those dots connect just fine.