CRNAs: We are the Answer

The American Association of Nurse Anesthetists makes a bold proclamation of their full practice, safety, independent capabilities, and economic advantage for our modern healthcare system. Specialties CRNA Article

Before we begin a discussion on the topic you should probably follow this link to the AANA's original statement.

Firstly, I have to disclose that I am in my third year of nurse anesthesia training preparing for graduation, so I am not a board certified CRNA yet. Anything I say is coming from the perspective of a new generation of CRNA DNP training which I've noted can be slightly different from those of older generations. I am also the elected political representative of my class throughout our program so I do stay more engaged and informed than some other anesthesia trainees. Last disclosure, I do serve the AANA and work on a committee that serves the board of directors.

Now, to understand where this new bold statement from the AANA came from I think it's necessary to understand it is in response to the ASA's statement about the Anesthesia Care Team last fall. Their statement unabashedly self-aggrandizes themselves and downplays CRNAs actual role as experts and independent anesthesia providers. In fact, they use wording that implies better education and training from their own assistants (AAs) than nurse anesthetists who has been providing safe competent anesthesia since the civil war.

Although, most CRNAs don't blame them for making a political statement like this promoting themselves and downplaying their competitors in the marketplace. That is the duty of a professional organization, to promote that organization. Anesthesia has been aggressively political since the early 1900s when physicians decided to start learning anesthesia and tried to make it illegal in California for a nurse anesthetist to continue practicing anesthesia. Who wants competitors if you think you can eliminate them, it just makes business sense.

After the political statement made last October by the ASA large amounts of CRNAs were outraged and demanded an immediate defending response from the AANA. The AANA is always careful and intentional in what it does, so they created a task force of influential and level headed CRNAs who would investigate the issue and come up with a diplomatic response. They spent 6 months discussing this and coming up with the response you are now reading. This statement was intentional and well thought out. It is supported and celebrated by a huge majority of CRNAs/SRNAs judging from responses in person and in private CRNA forums consisting of tens of thousands of CRNAs.

It's disconcerting that I have seen some negative comments online by people who aren't physicians. You would expect many physicians to react negatively to a non-physician provider talking about their education, training, and similar patient outcomes but it is odd to see some others ill-informed negativity.

The biggest confusing issue I see people have is that in the AANA's statement that is in response to the ASA's care team statement is that billing methods are often fraudulent. What many may not understand is that in a medical direction billing model (which is what the ASA is wanting everywhere) involves meeting 7 TEFRA requirements to bill for CMS. These requirements are very often not met even when physicians bill in medical direction, which is Medicare fraud. This is not just anecdotal. The ASA produced research they performed themselves that was published recognizing that a huge number of medical direction practices are not meeting the 7 TEFRA requirements. Medical direction benefits the physician because they can bill for 4 different cases at once while they are not providing the anesthesia but 4 different CRNAs are performing the anesthesia. You can see why they would want this to be a standard delivery method of anesthesia. Even when their own research shows they are fraudulently billing in many places they continue to push this model. This model is oftentimes the most restrictive and oppressive to CRNAs who choose to work with that anesthesia group. It is also one of the more costly models for hospitals to sustain, so it's not economically responsible or sustainable for many facilities.

CRNAs mention these issues with medical direction because it supports the movement nationwide for the collaborative model of anesthesia care. This model requires that both CRNAs and MDAs be independent full practice providers who work together on a team. They are equal partners and practice under their own license to provide safe high-quality anesthesia to their patients. In this model, there are no 7 TEFRA regulations so Medicare fraud is not an issue. The economic reason some in anesthesia will not like this anesthesia delivery model is that you can not bill for services of 4 CRNAs at once providing anesthesia. Each provider can only bill for their own anesthesia for a single case. It would do away with someone sitting in the break room drinking coffee while 4 other providers are working and earning you profit. You can see why certain people would not want this to happen.

I just wanted to clear that portion up about the AANA's statement so it had some context and people who are not in the anesthesia realm understand where that came from. Those of us in anesthesia are just so used to that issue I think we forget others are not informed about it.

What do you guys think about the new statement?

On 5/31/2019 at 10:22 AM, Bluebolt said:

I apologize if it comes off as condescending.

The first week of our doctoral training we were constantly reprimanded for making broad statements, like denigrating an entire profession, without hard evidence or statistics. I was constantly reminded in my weekly research papers or even in lecture that anecdotes and opinions carry as much weight as the air it's spoken on. After three years it has become second nature for me to disregard discussion that has no research, evidence, or merit beyond a single persons perspective. It may be interesting as far as stimulating you to investigate if this perspective is shared with more than one person, but even on here a sample size of 50-100 people would not be statistically significant.

I know this is the internet and I could be speaking to a 19 year old at a junior college but let's strive to be better. If we have strong opinions like "CRNAs have a fraction of training, CRNAs will kill patients if a physician isn't directing them, CRNAs are only good for basic healthy cases, MS3's can perform anesthesia safely" you need to support this with peer reviewed research and statistics. Otherwise, it's as relevant as me saying the sky is green.

As someone who has completed three years of anesthesia training and am graduating, I've been in the research, I've provided anesthesia for hundreds of cases, thousands of clinical hours, many complex case types and procedures, and I already have an opinion on CRNAs practice, capability and safety. You won't see me making those definitive opinions here though, unless I supply the research and statistics behind it.

Essentially the studies done by ASA show MDA is better. Ones done by AANA show crna are the same but not counting for near misses where anesthesiologist saved the day. Plus the patients taken care of by CRNA are just not as sick. Nobody is doubting crna ability for most cases but for all? That’s pushing it since MDA usually do heads hearts and trauma. Sick patients requiring surgery are often transferred to tertiary centers with MDA

1 hour ago, murseman24 said:

CRNA school does have an entire year of anatomy, physiology, and pharmacology. Many also require organic chemistry and physics for admission, and even the ones that don't have at least one course in biochem as part of the program. We read from the same anesthesia books and prepare from the same study preps. We are not trained in differential diagnosis and treatment of disease, or chronic patient management like medical school teaches you, we are trained in anesthesia. Just because you went through medical school doesn't mean you can give anesthesia, that is why they still need anesthesia residencies. The hours giving anesthesia and procedures performed between CRNA graduates and newly minted anesthesiologists are very similar. Trust me, as a patient you would be much better served with a CRNA student than a brand new resident who has never touched a patient or helped to take care of one like an ICU nurse has.

Med students touch patients from day one for four years. I do agree with the part you say though that for anesthesia training much of the knowledge gained in MD school is not required since excluding complications non pain fellowshipped MDA do not really diagnose chronic illness (but still need to know what they are for repercussions of the disease on giving anesthesio as you know. If you want to argue that all of medical school is not needed for safe distribution of anesthesia I will agree with you.

The amount of cases over 1-1.5 years of clinicals at most anesthesia schools is not equal to the three years of pure anesthesia/critical care of an anesthesia residency. I left out the intern year since it’s an intern year that probably does not need to exsist but does serve it’s purpose in understanding medicine in general.

Not all crna sxhools teach peripheral blocks also

TBH though if CRNA want full autonomy go for it. If you think you can do heads and hearts day one out of CRNA school then be my guest but I’ll def will be referring any of my patients to centers that have MDA backup or MDA core for their own safety. I would bet many crna schools send students to facilities too small to even have heart lung marchines/ CTS ! What are you gonna do day 1 when you need to give anesthesia to that open heart even though you never saw one in school. Many places don’t even let non chest fellow MDA in those patients

1 hour ago, Biker53 said:

I'm just asking questions trying to understand. I don't have the answer but agree that there is surely a skills & training reason why hospitals hire anesthesiologist MD's. It may what we are dealing with in this debate is the same as primary care NP's claiming they are the equivalent of internal medicine MD's. There is no way an MD goes through medical school and then years of residency and only has the equivalent education and skills of an NP who these days may never have even worked a day in their life as an RN but rather did one of those fast track online programs.

I personally have more bite with midlevels than CRNAs at least CRNA school provides adequate training for most things. The fires my colleagues and I have to put out from NPs on a daily basis is disheartening

1 Votes
1 hour ago, twinsmom788 said:

MD residents have touched many, many patients in their 4 years of medical school. One of my daughters was removing a skin issue in her first year of medical school ( first few weeks) in a derm clinic. Show me a BSN student or ICU nurse that has done that. I've been in both of those situations.

Medical students ( my daughters have delivered babies, worked in the OR, ER, etc...If you have not experienced a medical student's life then please think, before you speak, about "residents who have never touched a patient".

I never understood the nursing montage in regards to them thinking med students do nothing for four years.

1 Votes
10 minutes ago, hogger said:

I never understood the nursing montage in regards to them thinking med students do nothing for four years.

Hey Hogger, are you a doc? What is a nursing montage??

2 hours ago, twinsmom788 said:

Because they don't. Show me and I'm very willing to see, a BSN program that has an entire year of anatomy of a human being being dissected and discussed as a team effort in the very first year of medical school...BSN education does not require organic chemistry or other very difficult science courses at the undergraduate level. I would not be a graduate of my BSN program if that was the case. I worked in the SICU right after graduation with a BSN and would not have even considered that I was qualified to apply to CRNA school.

My daughters are both MDs so I know of what I speak. Education is the background and the intensive testing involved to become an MD( MCAT) and stay in medical school and beyond. STEP 1 and 2 and all the Shelf exams.

They are both fellowship trained and board certified in their specialties.

Show me a CRNA who has accomplished the the above. Please.

Many CRNA programs do require organic chemistry and physics, along with general chemistry, microbiology, anatomy and physiology 1&2, etc. I also did take a gross dissection course in undergrad. I'm sure it wasn't the same rigor as medical school but it was good exposure. Once I started my doctorate in nurse anesthesia we did take very rigorous courses in A&P and gross dissection that did last a year. We also took organic chemistry at the graduate level.

I understand you're a proud mother of your daughter's accomplishments, as you should be, but it leaves you with a stark bias. It also isn't a strong argument that you should speak as an authority on CRNAs education and capabilities because you have a BSN and maybe observed some of them work.

30 minutes ago, hogger said:

Med students touch patients from day one for four years. I do agree with the part you say though that for anesthesia training much of the knowledge gained in MD school is not required since excluding complications non pain fellowshipped MDA do not really diagnose chronic illness (but still need to know what they are for repercussions of the disease on giving anesthesio as you know. If you want to argue that all of medical school is not needed for safe distribution of anesthesia I will agree with you.

The amount of cases over 1-1.5 years of clinicals at most anesthesia schools is not equal to the three years of pure anesthesia/critical care of an anesthesia residency. I left out the intern year since it’s an intern year that probably does not need to exsist but does serve it’s purpose in understanding medicine in general.

Not all crna sxhools teach peripheral blocks also

TBH though if CRNA want full autonomy go for it. If you think you can do heads and hearts day one out of CRNA school then be my guest but I’ll def will be referring any of my patients to centers that have MDA backup or MDA core for their own safety. I would bet many crna schools send students to facilities too small to even have heart lung marchines/ CTS ! What are you gonna do day 1 when you need to give anesthesia to that open heart even though you never saw one in school. Many places don’t even let non chest fellow MDA in those patients

I've dated residents, and have family who are physicians, let's not kid here. The first two years of medical school are almost entirely didactic while the third and fourth year is much akin to advanced shadowing experience quickly rotating through many different specialties to get a taste of all. I have done anesthesia rotations where MS4s are doing an elective rotation there. We talk and get along and I try to help them out through the nerves and jitters. Most will admit they took the elective rotation for the easy schedule and not really be expected to know much or be pimped on anesthesia. They also confirm what you mention that they learn next to nothing that relates to anesthesia in med school.

You also rightly note that the first year of anesthesia residency is not anesthesia related but teaching you as an intern how to provide basic medical care to patients under heavy supervision and guidance. The next three years of residency are when they spend their time performing anesthesia in a graduated amount as they become more experienced. I have personally met physician anesthesiologists who have admitted to me their residency did not give them adequate peripheral nerve block experience and they would call on their colleague to assist them when they needed to perform one in practice. It should also be noted that it is a requirement in curriculum of CRNA programs and in clinical practice that you have full didactic knowledge of regional anesthesia and have performed it numerous times in clinical situations. Recently, our board certifications to practice have increased the amount of material on PNBs and Neuraxial so it has a much heavier focus in school than decades past.

Last note, it is a requirement that you cover cardiac anesthesia (CABG, TEE, Valve replacement) didactically but also that you do a cardiac rotation where you take these types of cases.

I hate the politics of this but for the sake of education, I will say what I have experienced as a CRNA student having just begun my 2nd of 3 total years. I have taken anatomy with cadaver lab/dissection. It is immensely helpful and our textbook was a med school text. Then we took Physiology and Pharmacology classes. As well as Chemistry physics. Pathophysiology. Much goes into this. Connecting the dots and relating it to my years and years as an ICU nurse taking care of sick sick people days in and days out.

I would never denigrate med students or docs, they just had a different road to anesthesia and they bring amazing experience too. It would just be great if the opposite would be recognized as well. When you have stared at a patient struggling to breath for 3 12 hours shifts straight, and tried every intervention and thought through why this is happening, what helps it, what relieves it, what looks different on the vent, how changes to the vent affected it, what meds would help, interacted with docs-took orders, recommended changes based on my observations (because i'm at the bedside watching), recognized changes in vitals....etc over and over again for years---this experience has much value. Docs know what to do when I call with this, but I also knew (as an RN that is my scope of practice-I cannot order things on my own) because I knew the abnormals and what needs to happen especially by the 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th year I've been doing this. I take all those skills learned over years to my role as an SRNA and the years I spend in CRNA school teach me the skills to make my own decisions off of that and that will be my new scope of practice.

As we start clinicals year 2, a couple weeks in, I have already done blocks like and spinal. We start hearts and heads and our trauma rotations later in the program, but I promise you they are there. We also rotate into sites starting later this year and throughout the program that are CRNA only--so literally the only providers for anesthesia are CRNAs-- or sites that provide massive amounts of regional and epidural experience. I also think (and this is opinion) that if CRNAs were able to do fellowships at the academic centers in thoracic specialties, many of them would. I personally would love to if it were available.

I agree that unfortunately all CRNA schools are not made equal, and when you have MD owned schools and thus MD directed/limited learning, they may not be as proficient as others, however many, many schools are and all of the skills (to my understanding) are within a CRNA's scope of practice.

5 Votes
31 minutes ago, Bluebolt said:

I've dated residents, and have family who are physicians, let's not kid here. The first two years of medical school are almost entirely didactic while the third and fourth year is much akin to advanced shadowing experience quickly rotating through many different specialties to get a taste of all. I have done anesthesia rotations where MS4s are doing an elective rotation there. We talk and get along and I try to help them out through the nerves and jitters. Most will admit they took the elective rotation for the easy schedule and not really be expected to know much or be pimped on anesthesia. They also confirm what you mention that they learn next to nothing that relates to anesthesia in med school.

You also rightly note that the first year of anesthesia residency is not anesthesia related but teaching you as an intern how to provide basic medical care to patients under heavy supervision and guidance. The next three years of residency are when they spend their time performing anesthesia in a graduated amount as they become more experienced. I have personally met physician anesthesiologists who have admitted to me their residency did not give them adequate peripheral nerve block experience and they would call on their colleague to assist them when they needed to perform one in practice. It should also be noted that it is a requirement in curriculum of CRNA programs and in clinical practice that you have full didactic knowledge of regional anesthesia and have performed it numerous times in clinical situations. Recently, our board certifications to practice have increased the amount of material on PNBs and Neuraxial so it has a much heavier focus in school than decades past.

Last note, it is a requirement that you cover cardiac anesthesia (CABG, TEE, Valve replacement) didactically but also that you do a cardiac rotation where you take these types of cases.

Right dude. Nobody is going to believe that CRNA school better prepare people for anesthesia than a physician residency. Give me a break nobody is buying this garbage. Med students are pretty involved in rotations at the place I work at. Just as involved as the crna students. I do agree that those not doing anesthesia do anesthesia for an easy rotation but those actually going into it go full on same schedule as CRNA students and at my shack are usually better prepared

The part about talking MS4 through nerves and jitters? Yeah sure most ms4 lost their nerves and jitters of the real world half way through MS3. They don’t need crna students to hand hold them through rotations — to add nursing students and crna students are also gradually given more autonomy that’s how training works it’s not just medical students and residents who get hand holding

I feel like every post you put on this site downplays the role and importance of physician education. Did you not get into medical school or something and maintain a chip on your shoulder? Do you feel inferior to MDAs? Are you made they make upwards of 4-5 while you bite the crums of 1/3 that? I guess that would bother me too since the APPs make a fraction of what we do. That seems to be the only logical answer to your thought processes toward physicians. I wonder if this air persists in clinicals, if so I am sure surgeons just love dealing with that type of non sense.

Dont forget if it wasnt for physicians you would have no one to give anesthesia to. But it is 2019 and large sums of nurses tend to think they can run hospitals independent of physicianS

Its easy easy for those who have not done medical training to downplay it but in real life MSs have as much required out of them as PA NP crna students but this is a nursing website so I digress.

1 Votes
54 minutes ago, Bluebolt said:

I've dated residents, and have family who are physicians, let's not kid here. The first two years of medical school are almost entirely didactic while the third and fourth year is much akin to advanced shadowing experience quickly rotating through many different specialties to get a taste of all. I have done anesthesia rotations where MS4s are doing an elective rotation there. We talk and get along and I try to help them out through the nerves and jitters. Most will admit they took the elective rotation for the easy schedule and not really be expected to know much or be pimped on anesthesia. They also confirm what you mention that they learn next to nothing that relates to anesthesia in med school.

You also rightly note that the first year of anesthesia residency is not anesthesia related but teaching you as an intern how to provide basic medical care to patients under heavy supervision and guidance. The next three years of residency are when they spend their time performing anesthesia in a graduated amount as they become more experienced. I have personally met physician anesthesiologists who have admitted to me their residency did not give them adequate peripheral nerve block experience and they would call on their colleague to assist them when they needed to perform one in practice. It should also be noted that it is a requirement in curriculum of CRNA programs and in clinical practice that you have full didactic knowledge of regional anesthesia and have performed it numerous times in clinical situations. Recently, our board certifications to practice have increased the amount of material on PNBs and Neuraxial so it has a much heavier focus in school than decades past.

Last note, it is a requirement that you cover cardiac anesthesia (CABG, TEE, Valve replacement) didactically but also that you do a cardiac rotation where you take these types of cases.

Oh my goodness, "dating a med student , etc, " makes one an expert on their training? If you are not a physician, you have no idea.

Wow, I was an OR nurse, CVOR for 10 years and saw anesthesia up close and personal. My SIL is an anesthesiologist, if that makes any difference. Good Heavens....wishing you the best.

1 Votes
1 hour ago, Bluebolt said:

Many CRNA programs do require organic chemistry and physics, along with general chemistry, microbiology, anatomy and physiology 1&2, etc. I also did take a gross dissection course in undergrad. I'm sure it wasn't the same rigor as medical school but it was good exposure. Once I started my doctorate in nurse anesthesia we did take very rigorous courses in A&P and gross dissection that did last a year. We also took organic chemistry at the graduate level.

I understand you're a proud mother of your daughter's accomplishments, as you should be, but it leaves you with a stark bias. It also isn't a strong argument that you should speak as an authority on CRNAs education and capabilities because you have a BSN and maybe observed some of them work.

This sounds like the good proof that I was interested in. I am not so biased as a mother. I am more biased as a CVOR nurse seeing that anesthesia is most important in the OR. I just wish I could interview my provider ( if needed) before any procedures.

Thanks for the info

2 hours ago, hogger said:

Right dude. Nobody is going to believe that CRNA school better prepare people for anesthesia than a physician residency. Give me a break nobody is buying this garbage. Med students are pretty involved in rotations at the place I work at. Just as involved as the crna students. I do agree that those not doing anesthesia do anesthesia for an easy rotation but those actually going into it go full on same schedule as CRNA students and at my shack are usually better prepared

The part about talking MS4 through nerves and jitters? Yeah sure most ms4 lost their nerves and jitters of the real world half way through MS3. They don’t need crna students to hand hold them through rotations — to add nursing students and crna students are also gradually given more autonomy that’s how training works it’s not just medical students and residents who get hand holding

I feel like every post you put on this site downplays the role and importance of physician education. Did you not get into medical school or something and maintain a chip on your shoulder? Do you feel inferior to MDAs? Are you made they make upwards of 4-5 while you bite the crums of 1/3 that? I guess that would bother me too since the APPs make a fraction of what we do. That seems to be the only logical answer to your thought processes toward physicians. I wonder if this air persists in clinicals, if so I am sure surgeons just love dealing with that type of non sense.

Dont forget if it wasnt for physicians you would have no one to give anesthesia to. But it is 2019 and large sums of nurses tend to think they can run hospitals independent of physicianS

Its easy easy for those who have not done medical training to downplay it but in real life MSs have as much required out of them as PA NP crna students but this is a nursing website so I digress.

I'm guessing you're an MS2 or MS3 from the passionate debate in favor of the robust clinical skill of medical students. I'm afraid any nurse working in the hospital when MS4's graduate and become residents know just how little clinical application ability is there in the beginning.

I'm not saying medical school is useless or med students are bumbling fools in the clinical arena so please lower your blood pressure. Although, If you believe that a medical student has the same expectations and performance of a third-year SRNA you're wildly delusional. In fact, on my first rotation as a second-year student, I had more responsibilities and expectations than the MS4 rotating with us. She at least had the sense to admit that and make polite conversation.

I did a med school internship and chose to do a CRNA DNP instead because I could see the changing of the tides in healthcare. As you say, physician anesthesiologists will make $400,000 a year where a CRNA may make $200,000 a year. The more economical option between two anesthesia providers who can perform the same role is exactly why the future is so bright for CRNAs.

1 Votes