CRNAs: We are the Answer

The American Association of Nurse Anesthetists makes a bold proclamation of their full practice, safety, independent capabilities, and economic advantage for our modern healthcare system. Specialties CRNA Article

Before we begin a discussion on the topic you should probably follow this link to the AANA's original statement.

Firstly, I have to disclose that I am in my third year of nurse anesthesia training preparing for graduation, so I am not a board certified CRNA yet. Anything I say is coming from the perspective of a new generation of CRNA DNP training which I've noted can be slightly different from those of older generations. I am also the elected political representative of my class throughout our program so I do stay more engaged and informed than some other anesthesia trainees. Last disclosure, I do serve the AANA and work on a committee that serves the board of directors.

Now, to understand where this new bold statement from the AANA came from I think it's necessary to understand it is in response to the ASA's statement about the Anesthesia Care Team last fall. Their statement unabashedly self-aggrandizes themselves and downplays CRNAs actual role as experts and independent anesthesia providers. In fact, they use wording that implies better education and training from their own assistants (AAs) than nurse anesthetists who has been providing safe competent anesthesia since the civil war.

Although, most CRNAs don't blame them for making a political statement like this promoting themselves and downplaying their competitors in the marketplace. That is the duty of a professional organization, to promote that organization. Anesthesia has been aggressively political since the early 1900s when physicians decided to start learning anesthesia and tried to make it illegal in California for a nurse anesthetist to continue practicing anesthesia. Who wants competitors if you think you can eliminate them, it just makes business sense.

After the political statement made last October by the ASA large amounts of CRNAs were outraged and demanded an immediate defending response from the AANA. The AANA is always careful and intentional in what it does, so they created a task force of influential and level headed CRNAs who would investigate the issue and come up with a diplomatic response. They spent 6 months discussing this and coming up with the response you are now reading. This statement was intentional and well thought out. It is supported and celebrated by a huge majority of CRNAs/SRNAs judging from responses in person and in private CRNA forums consisting of tens of thousands of CRNAs.

It's disconcerting that I have seen some negative comments online by people who aren't physicians. You would expect many physicians to react negatively to a non-physician provider talking about their education, training, and similar patient outcomes but it is odd to see some others ill-informed negativity.

The biggest confusing issue I see people have is that in the AANA's statement that is in response to the ASA's care team statement is that billing methods are often fraudulent. What many may not understand is that in a medical direction billing model (which is what the ASA is wanting everywhere) involves meeting 7 TEFRA requirements to bill for CMS. These requirements are very often not met even when physicians bill in medical direction, which is Medicare fraud. This is not just anecdotal. The ASA produced research they performed themselves that was published recognizing that a huge number of medical direction practices are not meeting the 7 TEFRA requirements. Medical direction benefits the physician because they can bill for 4 different cases at once while they are not providing the anesthesia but 4 different CRNAs are performing the anesthesia. You can see why they would want this to be a standard delivery method of anesthesia. Even when their own research shows they are fraudulently billing in many places they continue to push this model. This model is oftentimes the most restrictive and oppressive to CRNAs who choose to work with that anesthesia group. It is also one of the more costly models for hospitals to sustain, so it's not economically responsible or sustainable for many facilities.

CRNAs mention these issues with medical direction because it supports the movement nationwide for the collaborative model of anesthesia care. This model requires that both CRNAs and MDAs be independent full practice providers who work together on a team. They are equal partners and practice under their own license to provide safe high-quality anesthesia to their patients. In this model, there are no 7 TEFRA regulations so Medicare fraud is not an issue. The economic reason some in anesthesia will not like this anesthesia delivery model is that you can not bill for services of 4 CRNAs at once providing anesthesia. Each provider can only bill for their own anesthesia for a single case. It would do away with someone sitting in the break room drinking coffee while 4 other providers are working and earning you profit. You can see why certain people would not want this to happen.

I just wanted to clear that portion up about the AANA's statement so it had some context and people who are not in the anesthesia realm understand where that came from. Those of us in anesthesia are just so used to that issue I think we forget others are not informed about it.

What do you guys think about the new statement?

The only individuals that can answer this question are the CRNAs and and anesthesiologists and the OR nurses who document the providers. When I was an OR nurse at a Children's hospital, we had no CRNAs.

1 hour ago, Biker53 said:

This is a topic that has confused me or a while now. Am I understanding this correctly that the MD's are there for the initial induction but then leave for another OR while the CRNA stays with the patient and manages the anesthesia throughout the surgery, only calling the MD if an emergency arises? If so, how quickly do those MD's respond when called? Is it clear as to when the MD must be called? Seems somewhat fraudulent on the MD's part to talk to the patient as if they are the one making sure the patient gets through surgery safely when in fact it is the CRNA.

Do you call managing the patient safely, when a CRNA say to me...oh look at this heart rhythm,...when the patient has his heart pattern go squiggly, I just turn up the O2. We were at that time in the military and after that comment, I never trusted a CRNA.

5 hours ago, MedicRU said:

The billing model seems to be the key word these days..

No disrespect to CRNA's, but they are NOT MD's! CRNA's are ICU nurses on steroids, they do not have the many years of rigorous and enduring training of MD's and should not claim they are as capable as the latter.

CRNA's are very well trained, but they are on a nurse track, not on physician track.

As a former ICU nurse I dealt with all kinds of anesthesia drips, and am very familiar with things that can go wrong, however that does not instill me with realization of being even remotely near a very specialized Anesthesiology MD's, whom I hold an utmost respect for.

I have also observed some ICU nurses being careless with Pent drips, Benzo's drips and Propofol drips, etc., and I would not want a CRNA to administer anesthesia to me based on my belief that CRNA's are just that - ICU nurses with anesthesia training along with false sense of confidence.

I'd worry about my HR and my own airway even in my sedated state, not knowing if there's an MD nearby :)))

I am of opinion we need CRNA's to operate strictly in the presence of Anesthesiology MD's and certainly, absolutely not autonomously.

I really appreciate your comment. It's input like this that lets the CRNA community understand how much education about the specialty is needed even within the nursing community. You have a great deal of misinformation and opinions that seem to be based on ignorance. It's okay because it's really our failing for not informing and engaging with the nursing community so they have a better grasp on CRNAs and their practice. I worked in the ICU for years and actively sought out information about CRNAs and was still shocked how much I didn't know or what I knew that was skewed when I began training.

Thank you so much for your input!

2 hours ago, Biker53 said:

This is a topic that has confused me or a while now. Am I understanding this correctly that the MD's are there for the initial induction but then leave for another OR while the CRNA stays with the patient and manages the anesthesia throughout the surgery, only calling the MD if an emergency arises? If so, how quickly do those MD's respond when called? Is it clear as to when the MD must be called? Seems somewhat fraudulent on the MD's part to talk to the patient as if they are the one making sure the patient gets through surgery safely when in fact it is the CRNA.

I'll try to make this a little more clear for you because admittedly it can get convoluted. During my few years of anesthesia training, I've done rotations at many different clinical sites. Some of the sites are considered medical direction which is like the situation you described where an MD may do the preop assessment and 4 CRNAs are working connected to that MD. These 4 different CRNAs will show up to preop, give their preop cocktail of choice then take the patient back to the OR. The MD is supposed to show up at this point to assist in induction and intubation, then leave and go about doing other tasks to help workflow in surgery move smoother. They are also supposed to show back up at the end of surgery and be present for removing of the breathing device and waking up of the patient. In order to bill Medicare/Medicaid for their services, they must document they do this on every case for all 4 different CRNAs every day all the time. Research has shown that there is a large percentage of time that they are not present or involved but they bill like they were. That's the issue the AANA is addressing in the original post. I only rotated at 1 site that still does this billing model.

What many other groups have changed to is a medical supervision model which is more of a collaborative environment where CRNAs and MDs may run their own cases. They may do their own preop or help each other if they get spare time. Everyone works to the top of their license and you don't have to be in the room when you go to sleep or wake up. The CRNAs bill insurance as an independent provider, etc. This has been 80% of the facilities I've rotated at.

Then you have CRNA only practices where they all work to the top of their license, manage the business side of anesthesia, take a decent amount of call, and have ownership over the group. I rotated through a couple of these locations.

I hope that clears up some of the working environments and billing models that exist in anesthesia.

9 hours ago, Bluebolt said:

I really appreciate your comment. It's input like this that lets the CRNA community understand how much education about the specialty is needed even within the nursing community. You have a great deal of misinformation and opinions that seem to be based on ignorance. It's okay because it's really our failing for not informing and engaging with the nursing community so they have a better grasp on CRNAs and their practice. I worked in the ICU for years and actively sought out information about CRNAs and was still shocked how much I didn't know or what I knew that was skewed when I began training.

Thank you so much for your input!

This is like one of the most condescending posts I’ve ever seen. You talk to people like they are children if you disagree with them yet you are only a student crna. He makes valid points in stating that crnas have a fraction of the training of an anesthesiologist. They are good for bread and butter cases and nothing else unless they have a physician supervising them. But then again an ms 3 can do anesthesia for a bread and butter case as they let us back in medical school while they played on their phones

1 hour ago, hogger said:

This is like one of the most condescending posts I’ve ever seen. You talk to people like they are children if you disagree with them yet you are only a student crna. He makes valid points in stating that crnas have a fraction of the training of an anesthesiologist. They are good for bread and butter cases and nothing else unless they have a physician supervising them. But then again an ms 3 can do anesthesia for a bread and butter case as they let us back in medical school while they played on their phones

I apologize if it comes off as condescending.

The first week of our doctoral training we were constantly reprimanded for making broad statements, like denigrating an entire profession, without hard evidence or statistics. I was constantly reminded in my weekly research papers or even in lecture that anecdotes and opinions carry as much weight as the air it's spoken on. After three years it has become second nature for me to disregard discussion that has no research, evidence, or merit beyond a single persons perspective. It may be interesting as far as stimulating you to investigate if this perspective is shared with more than one person, but even on here a sample size of 50-100 people would not be statistically significant.

I know this is the internet and I could be speaking to a 19 year old at a junior college but let's strive to be better. If we have strong opinions like "CRNAs have a fraction of training, CRNAs will kill patients if a physician isn't directing them, CRNAs are only good for basic healthy cases, MS3's can perform anesthesia safely" you need to support this with peer reviewed research and statistics. Otherwise, it's as relevant as me saying the sky is green.

As someone who has completed three years of anesthesia training and am graduating, I've been in the research, I've provided anesthesia for hundreds of cases, thousands of clinical hours, many complex case types and procedures, and I already have an opinion on CRNAs practice, capability and safety. You won't see me making those definitive opinions here though, unless I supply the research and statistics behind it.

Specializes in Trauma ICU/PCU.
18 hours ago, Bluebolt said:

I really appreciate your comment. It's input like this that lets the CRNA community understand how much education about the specialty is needed even within the nursing community. You have a great deal of misinformation and opinions that seem to be based on ignorance. It's okay because it's really our failing for not informing and engaging with the nursing community so they have a better grasp on CRNAs and their practice. I worked in the ICU for years and actively sought out information about CRNAs and was still shocked how much I didn't know or what I knew that was skewed when I began training.

Thank you so much for your input!

If you paint me "ignorant in my opinion", at least attempt to provide the basis for your statement to counter argue why you think there's a misconception on the part of nursing community.

Until then, a condescending statement like this would only reinforce a sense of distrust many RN's might hold towards CRNA's (I will not speak for all, but just for my own person in this particular context).

59 minutes ago, MedicRU said:

If you paint me "ignorant in my opinion", at least attempt to provide the basis for your statement to counter argue why you think there's a misconception on the part of nursing community.

Until then, a condescending statement like this would only reinforce a sense of distrust many RN's might hold towards CRNA's (I will not speak for all, but just for my own person in this particular context).

I don't want to derail the conversation away from the OP.

In short, I think it's multifactoral from my personal experience in the nursing field and anesthesia field. CRNAs do not round often on their patients after surgery and when they do post anesthesia evals it's quick without much interaction with the nursing staff. They spend most of their career behind closed doors in the OR behind a drape moving levers, knobs and pushing drugs to provide a smooth anesthetic for the patient. Most nurses never even see CRNAs do their job unless they are circulators. Sadly, even some circulators don't have an accurate grasp on what the CRNA is doing or thinking, from what I've gathered interacting with some. Being an anesthesia provider is like being an airline pilot, it may seem like we're calm and just silently changing settings or giving IV meds but the reality is we're averting potential bad outcomes thinking three steps ahead.

As you can see from this post in the CRNA specialty tab and no CRNAs or even SRNAs are bothering to engage, CRNAs have mostly given up on educating other nurses about the field. I suppose we don't ask pathologists, chiropractors, orthodontists, and optometrists to come on here and educate on their specialty and CRNAs don't feel like taking the time to do it either.

I was active on this forum when I was a nursing student, then an ICU nurse, and throughout my anesthesia training, so I still try to engage. I'm not so far removed from my years in the ICU to think it's a lost cause to have scholarly constructive discussion with the nursing community at large. That's the reason I posted this discussion topic in the first place, to have respectful discourse. It's fine to have strong opinions and make grand statements here, but it should be backed up with data to support it.

Specializes in anesthesiology.
On 5/28/2019 at 11:13 PM, Crystal-Wings said:

I'd still rather have an M.D. if given the choice.

Honestly I don't blame the public for thinking this way. They hear "doctor" and automatically assume they are better trained. The truth is in anesthesia most adverse events happen via a lack of vigilance. You develop a safe anesthetic plan and see the patient through it, monitoring them through surgery. Anesthesia providers don't diagnose and treat medical diseases like every other doctor. They stabilize the patient and treat their "response to the disease." It's much more like nursing than I originally even thought. It's a hands on skill, and if you're not doing it every day you will get rusty and miss things, your timing will be off. They call it the "art of anesthesia" for a reason. I want a GOOD provider who ADMINISTERS anesthesia every day to give me and my family their anesthetic. There are good and bad MDA's and CRNAs. Joan Rivers had an MD when she died, did her a lot of good.

22 minutes ago, murseman24 said:

Honestly I don't blame the public for thinking this way. They hear "doctor" and automatically assume they are better trained. The truth is in anesthesia most adverse events happen via a lack of vigilance. You develop a safe anesthetic plan and see the patient through it, monitoring them through surgery. Anesthesia providers don't diagnose and treat medical diseases like every other doctor. They stabilize the patient and treat their "response to the disease." It's much more like nursing than I originally even thought. It's a hands on skill, and if you're not doing it every day you will get rusty and miss things, your timing will be off. They call it the "art of anesthesia" for a reason. I want a GOOD provider who ADMINISTERS anesthesia every day to give me and my family their anesthetic. There are good and bad MDA's and CRNAs. Joan Rivers had an MD when she died, did her a lot of good.

THIS is the best reply I have read on this thread. Good food for thought. Yes, sad about Joan Rivers and true.

Specializes in anesthesiology.
5 hours ago, MedicRU said:

If you paint me "ignorant in my opinion", at least attempt to provide the basis for your statement to counter argue why you think there's a misconception on the part of nursing community.

Until then, a condescending statement like this would only reinforce a sense of distrust many RN's might hold towards CRNA's (I will not speak for all, but just for my own person in this particular context).

Trying to convince you that a CRNA is equivocal in outcome to a physician anesthesiologist is a fool's errand as no one can change your opinion but yourself. Would studies that state this fact convince you, as there are many that do. You sound like you already have your mind made up, but there are many ways to break down anesthesia training, and the difference in numbers and hours may surprise you. Anesthesia training is pretty comparable in hours and case counts between CRNA's and anesthesiologists (admittedly the physicians end up with a little more, but it's nowhere near double or quadruple or whatever they would have you believe). Where a physician may outshine IMO is during an elective fellowship in cardiac, peds, OB, or pain medicine. The extra time and attention there is something that CRNAs can only get during years of actual on the job training after their initial training.

I understand the distrust thing. Many CRNAs can be viewed to have an elitist attitude that is difficult to swallow. But try to remember they are always having to defend their profession and it is a TON of work to get there. Seriously the hardest thing I've done, and I used to scoff when I heard people say this. Take care.

Just from the experience I have had working with CRNA's I would prefer them over a anesthesiologist for my anesthisia. The docs I've worked with seem to be uninterested or disengaged during the case until or unless it becomes complicated. The CRNA's are more attentive to the patient.