CRNAs: We are the Answer

The American Association of Nurse Anesthetists makes a bold proclamation of their full practice, safety, independent capabilities, and economic advantage for our modern healthcare system. Specialties CRNA Article

Before we begin a discussion on the topic you should probably follow this link to the AANA's original statement.

Firstly, I have to disclose that I am in my third year of nurse anesthesia training preparing for graduation, so I am not a board certified CRNA yet. Anything I say is coming from the perspective of a new generation of CRNA DNP training which I've noted can be slightly different from those of older generations. I am also the elected political representative of my class throughout our program so I do stay more engaged and informed than some other anesthesia trainees. Last disclosure, I do serve the AANA and work on a committee that serves the board of directors.

Now, to understand where this new bold statement from the AANA came from I think it's necessary to understand it is in response to the ASA's statement about the Anesthesia Care Team last fall. Their statement unabashedly self-aggrandizes themselves and downplays CRNAs actual role as experts and independent anesthesia providers. In fact, they use wording that implies better education and training from their own assistants (AAs) than nurse anesthetists who has been providing safe competent anesthesia since the civil war.

Although, most CRNAs don't blame them for making a political statement like this promoting themselves and downplaying their competitors in the marketplace. That is the duty of a professional organization, to promote that organization. Anesthesia has been aggressively political since the early 1900s when physicians decided to start learning anesthesia and tried to make it illegal in California for a nurse anesthetist to continue practicing anesthesia. Who wants competitors if you think you can eliminate them, it just makes business sense.

After the political statement made last October by the ASA large amounts of CRNAs were outraged and demanded an immediate defending response from the AANA. The AANA is always careful and intentional in what it does, so they created a task force of influential and level headed CRNAs who would investigate the issue and come up with a diplomatic response. They spent 6 months discussing this and coming up with the response you are now reading. This statement was intentional and well thought out. It is supported and celebrated by a huge majority of CRNAs/SRNAs judging from responses in person and in private CRNA forums consisting of tens of thousands of CRNAs.

It's disconcerting that I have seen some negative comments online by people who aren't physicians. You would expect many physicians to react negatively to a non-physician provider talking about their education, training, and similar patient outcomes but it is odd to see some others ill-informed negativity.

The biggest confusing issue I see people have is that in the AANA's statement that is in response to the ASA's care team statement is that billing methods are often fraudulent. What many may not understand is that in a medical direction billing model (which is what the ASA is wanting everywhere) involves meeting 7 TEFRA requirements to bill for CMS. These requirements are very often not met even when physicians bill in medical direction, which is Medicare fraud. This is not just anecdotal. The ASA produced research they performed themselves that was published recognizing that a huge number of medical direction practices are not meeting the 7 TEFRA requirements. Medical direction benefits the physician because they can bill for 4 different cases at once while they are not providing the anesthesia but 4 different CRNAs are performing the anesthesia. You can see why they would want this to be a standard delivery method of anesthesia. Even when their own research shows they are fraudulently billing in many places they continue to push this model. This model is oftentimes the most restrictive and oppressive to CRNAs who choose to work with that anesthesia group. It is also one of the more costly models for hospitals to sustain, so it's not economically responsible or sustainable for many facilities.

CRNAs mention these issues with medical direction because it supports the movement nationwide for the collaborative model of anesthesia care. This model requires that both CRNAs and MDAs be independent full practice providers who work together on a team. They are equal partners and practice under their own license to provide safe high-quality anesthesia to their patients. In this model, there are no 7 TEFRA regulations so Medicare fraud is not an issue. The economic reason some in anesthesia will not like this anesthesia delivery model is that you can not bill for services of 4 CRNAs at once providing anesthesia. Each provider can only bill for their own anesthesia for a single case. It would do away with someone sitting in the break room drinking coffee while 4 other providers are working and earning you profit. You can see why certain people would not want this to happen.

I just wanted to clear that portion up about the AANA's statement so it had some context and people who are not in the anesthesia realm understand where that came from. Those of us in anesthesia are just so used to that issue I think we forget others are not informed about it.

What do you guys think about the new statement?

Specializes in LTC, Rural, OB.

In my rural hospital, we only have CRNAs. They practice autonomously and are very good at what they do. One of them did my epidural while I was in labor and now that I work L&D, I work with them routinely. I can't remember the last time I came across an actual MD anesthesiologist. I think they should be able to work autonomously.

6 Votes
5 hours ago, Caspars1 said:

Just from the experience I have had working with CRNA's I would prefer them over a anesthesiologist for my anesthisia. The docs I've worked with seem to be uninterested or disengaged during the case until or unless it becomes complicated. The CRNA's are more attentive to the patient.

Interesting comment. This sounds like my experience with PA's. My last 2 primary care providers have been PA's, not because I wanted a PA but because when I needed to find a new PCP there weren't any MD's within 2 hours of where I live taking new patients. My reluctance/disappointment in not finding an MD quickly turned into a pleasant surprise. Both PA's (the 1st relocated which is how I came to have a 2nd) were by far more thorough in their assessments and attentive to medical issues than any MD I've had ever was. Both addressed issues that my prior MD's ignored.

With CRNA's however, there is an act of faith that the CRNA will recognize when it is time to get the anesthesiologist and that the anesthesiologist is readily at hand.

2 hours ago, Biker53 said:

With CRNA's however, there is an act of faith that the CRNA will recognize when it is time to get the anesthesiologist and that the anesthesiologist is readily at hand.

Day one of your CRNA training you are being prepared to be an independent anesthesia provider. If you manage to get to graduation and still think you need another anesthesia provider to think through hard situations for you, your program has seriously failed you.

5 Votes
1 hour ago, Bluebolt said:

Day one of your CRNA training you are being prepared to be an independent anesthesia provider. If you manage to get to graduation and still think you need another anesthesia provider to think through hard situations for you, your program has seriously failed you.

Then why would any hospital ever employ an Anesthesiologist MD if the same skill & knowledge level is available for far less $ in the form of CRNA's? Why would anyone go through all those years of medical school and Residency to become an Anesthesiologist if they can be easily replaced with a CRNA? These are real questions. I'm not trying to advocate for or against CRNA's or anesthesiologists. I'm just trying to understand the issue.

38 minutes ago, Biker53 said:

Then why would any hospital ever employ an Anesthesiologist MD if the same skill & knowledge level is available for far less $ in the form of CRNA's? Why would anyone go through all those years of medical school and Residency to become an Anesthesiologist if they can be easily replaced with a CRNA? These are real questions. I'm not trying to advocate for or against CRNA's or anesthesiologists. I'm just trying to understand the issue.

From speaking to many of them I gather they like the work/life balance of anesthesia, the lack of having to do a clinic, no continual followup with noncompliant patients, no rounding in the hospital, and the procedures and challenges anesthesia presents.

There is also a lot of financial incentive for CRNAs and physician anesthesiologists in anesthesia, especially for physician anesthesiologists.

4 Votes
42 minutes ago, Bluebolt said:

From speaking to many of them I gather they like the work/life balance of anesthesia, the lack of having to do a clinic, no continual followup with noncompliant patients, no rounding in the hospital, and the procedures and challenges anesthesia presents.

There is also a lot of financial incentive for CRNAs and physician anesthesiologists in anesthesia, especially for physician anesthesiologists.

But you haven't answered why would a hospital ever hire an anesthesiologist if a CRNA will do the same work for much less $ while having the same skill & knowledge base as an anesthesiologist.

Specializes in anesthesiology.
2 hours ago, Biker53 said:

But you haven't answered why would a hospital ever hire an anesthesiologist if a CRNA will do the same work for much less $ while having the same skill & knowledge base as an anesthesiologist.

Some of them don't. Some hospitals have been taken over by CRNA only groups. Some hospitals have MD anesthesiologists on the board of the hospital and have a lot of administrative power. And hospital administrators aren't clinicians and many believe that being a "doctor" is better, and therefore can be easily manipulated. Anesthesiology is a medical specialty and is ingrained in some large teaching hospitals, so will likely never go away there. There aren't enough CRNA's or enough MDA's for the other one to just disappear. Honestly some very large teaching hospitals have great MDA's who are TEE certified and exceptional clinicians, while they limit the scope of practice for the CRNA's that work there, so at those institutions they have made themselves indispensable. There are many reasons, but the fact that outcomes are the same and there are some hospitals who have no anesthesiologists, and some that have both while the CRNA does EVERYTHING the MDA does should say something about the ability of a good CRNA to provide the entirety of anesthesia care.

2 Votes

Biker53 you have stumbled upon the same question that the AANA is addressing and trying to clear up the misconceptions. It comes down to policies in the state/facility which the CRNA is practicing and is why it is so political between the MDA and CRNA professions. Which is why the title of this post is “we are the answer”. Providing cost effective and consistently safe care is what CRNAs have been doing for decades.

3 Votes
2 hours ago, Biker53 said:

But you haven't answered why would a hospital ever hire an anesthesiologist if a CRNA will do the same work for much less $ while having the same skill & knowledge base as an anesthesiologist.

Because they don't. Show me and I'm very willing to see, a BSN program that has an entire year of anatomy of a human being being dissected and discussed as a team effort in the very first year of medical school...BSN education does not require organic chemistry or other very difficult science courses at the undergraduate level. I would not be a graduate of my BSN program if that was the case. I worked in the SICU right after graduation with a BSN and would not have even considered that I was qualified to apply to CRNA school.

My daughters are both MDs so I know of what I speak. Education is the background and the intensive testing involved to become an MD( MCAT) and stay in medical school and beyond. STEP 1 and 2 and all the Shelf exams.

They are both fellowship trained and board certified in their specialties.

Show me a CRNA who has accomplished the the above. Please.

39 minutes ago, twinsmom788 said:

Because they don't. Show me and I'm very willing to see, a BSN program that has an entire year of anatomy of a human being being dissected and discussed as a team effort in the very first year of medical school...BSN education does not require organic chemistry or other very difficult science courses at the undergraduate level. I would not be a graduate of my BSN program if that was the case. I worked in the SICU right after graduation with a BSN and would not have even considered that I was qualified to apply to CRNA school.

My daughters are both MDs so I know of what I speak. Education is the background and the intensive testing involved to become an MD( MCAT) and stay in medical school and beyond. STEP 1 and 2 and all the Shelf exams.

They are both fellowship trained and board certified in their specialties.

Show me a CRNA who has accomplished the the above. Please.

I'm just asking questions trying to understand. I don't have the answer but agree that there is surely a skills & training reason why hospitals hire anesthesiologist MD's. It may what we are dealing with in this debate is the same as primary care NP's claiming they are the equivalent of internal medicine MD's. There is no way an MD goes through medical school and then years of residency and only has the equivalent education and skills of an NP who these days may never have even worked a day in their life as an RN but rather did one of those fast track online programs.

Specializes in anesthesiology.
36 minutes ago, twinsmom788 said:

Because they don't. Show me and I'm very willing to see, a BSN program that has an entire year of anatomy of a human being being dissected and discussed as a team effort in the very first year of medical school...BSN education does not require organic chemistry or other very difficult science courses at the undergraduate level. I would not be a graduate of my BSN program if that was the case. I worked in the SICU right after graduation with a BSN and would not have even considered that I was qualified to apply to CRNA school.

My daughters are both MDs so I know of what I speak. Education is the background and the intensive testing involved to become an MD( MCAT) and stay in medical school and beyond. STEP 1 and 2 and all the Shelf exams.

They are both fellowship trained and board certified in their specialties.

Show me a CRNA who has accomplished the the above. Please.

CRNA school does have an entire year of anatomy, physiology, and pharmacology. Many also require organic chemistry and physics for admission, and even the ones that don't have at least one course in biochem as part of the program. We read from the same anesthesia books and prepare from the same study preps. We are not trained in differential diagnosis and treatment of disease, or chronic patient management like medical school teaches you, we are trained in anesthesia. Just because you went through medical school doesn't mean you can give anesthesia, that is why they still need anesthesia residencies. The hours giving anesthesia and procedures performed between CRNA graduates and newly minted anesthesiologists are very similar. Trust me, as a patient you would be much better served with a CRNA student than a brand new resident who has never touched a patient or helped to take care of one like an ICU nurse has.

2 Votes

MD residents have touched many, many patients in their 4 years of medical school. One of my daughters was removing a skin issue in her first year of medical school ( first few weeks) in a derm clinic. Show me a BSN student or ICU nurse that has done that. I've been in both of those situations.

Medical students ( my daughters have delivered babies, worked in the OR, ER, etc...If you have not experienced a medical student's life then please think, before you speak, about "residents who have never touched a patient".

2 Votes