COVID-19 and extinction of human species

Nurses COVID

Published

I predict that in 3-4 weeks time there will be significant discussion brought to light by academic epidemiologists on Twitter about COVID-19 as a possible extinction event. I could be wrong, but let's look at the numbers. We have a contagious disease that is as deadly as the 1918 pandemic with all of modern medicine being thrown at it. In 1918, the 5% of critically ill covid-19 cases would surely have died - excluding those rare minor miracles. A higher percentage of patients requiring admission, but not intubation, would also surely pass away.

Nobody is certain that we will be able to keep up a sophisticated level of care, and in that case you're looking at a significant jump in mortality rate as critically and moderately ill patients cannot be treated due to the overwhelming surge.

COVID-19 is not showing many signs of being susceptible to weather. Hot and humid locations across our own country are seeing their own exponential outbreaks. Any flattening of the curve will only last until social distancing measures are lifted. Nobody can be absolutely certain that active immunity (antibodies made after an infection) will last long enough to prevent yearly reinfection, and so there is the possibility that we'll see this return year after year.

Unless we develop a vaccine, we will have an endemic virus that infects 50-70% of our population and has a mortality rate that is 2-5x that of the spanish flu and will cripple a healthcare system that doesn't find a way to grow itself by 3-400% whilst protecting the workers.

The birth rate is only 1.8% folks. Essentially, we'll be spending 7% our of money and only getting 1.8% back in returns. The principle won't last forever and the human race will eventually go out of business.

Thoughts?

Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
On 3/30/2020 at 9:58 PM, DannyBoy8 said:

10-20% of the those infected in a given outbreak would die, then again the next year as reinfection occurs, and again the next year, and so on......should covid-19 go unchecked by a vaccine.

But the point is that we WILL have a vaccine and/or effective treatments within the next year. You make no sense at all.

Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
On 4/1/2020 at 11:50 AM, DannyBoy8 said:

The black death had a CFR between 1% and 15% and wiped out half of Europe. If covid-19 presented itself to the world in 1333, it would have had a similar impact, if not worse - given that it's a virus and is not dependent on weather patterns and/or relationship between host and transport carrier (flea and rat).

If a pathogen that wipes out 40 million creatures and has no known cure doesn't register as a threat to it's target species, then you're just living in denial.

Please review your math and history. The Black Death killed between 30% and 50% of the European population. It still was not an extinction event. You make no sense.

14 minutes ago, FullGlass said:

But the point is that we WILL have a vaccine and/or effective treatments within the next year. You make no sense at all.

I would suspect the goal of the original poster is not a rational one.

Fullglass, you're obviously the one who needs to brush up on their history and refresh your statistics.

Duration of Black Death: 6 years

Dead: 30-50% of Europe

Like most Americans you obviously don't grasp the concept of compound interest; and therefore, need to be educated on compound depreciation.

A mortality rate of around 8% results in 30-50% of the population dying in 6 years.

6% CFR = 30% of population

10% = approx. 50%

and

15% = 63%

The black death didn't wipe out half of Europe in weeks, months, or even a year. It took over half a decade of slow and steady fatalities.

Species are threatened when there is a slow and steady decline in numbers that outpaces repopulation (birth rate). This is not going to happen overnight.

And to your point about the vaccine. I contend that your statement that we WILL have a vaccine within a year is dangerously optimistic and my attempt to discuss the macro-epidemiology of a gross pandemic pales in comparison to your irresponsible throwing around of a best case scenario as fact.

On 3/30/2020 at 7:47 PM, LL2788 said:

I agree with you. That is why when I tell people we will likely have to social distance for atleast 6 months to a year and they disagree I don’t understand the logic. The healthcare system will eventually collapse in the US without PPE and equipment.

If American companies would stop selling essential supplies to overseas buyers and would get it to our own countrymen first, perhaps our system won't collapse.

I only know what I hear on the news. If I am wrong, if these giant firms are not selling stuff to the highest bidder, I apologize. I hope I am wrong.

If Trump would invoke the Act, he could force sales of masks, gloves, gowns, face shields, vents, etc. to American health care facilities. These firms deserve a profit, a modest profit. Certainly they can afford to be patriotic instead of engaging in price gouging. So why is our President dithering? Monetary reward for himself? Votes in November? Just plain short-sighted?

I don't think mankind will become extinct but the situation is definitely a mess.

Specializes in Emergency.

A bit dramatic. Besides, if the human race blinks out of existence we'll be joining a multitude of other beings that have inhabited this planet. In the big scheme of things? Not that impressive.

Strange thing about Humans, many never have symptoms to whatever is floating around.

A portion of the population don't get sick from a particular Bogey floating in the air.

Some never get Malaria, even without precautions, in areas where the disease is common.

Some never get seasonal flu, even when the flu is raging through an area.

So... within the Human population, there are those who do not sicken, and survive to reproduce.

The trouble is, that a huge number of people are sick and spreading this current virus, extinction?

Not likely.

Specializes in Hospice.
13 hours ago, DannyBoy8 said:

The black death didn't wipe out half of Europe in weeks, months, or even a year. It took over half a decade of slow and steady fatalities.

In a society that didn't even know where diseases came from. They didn't know about bacteria, viruses, etc. They had no good healthcare and terrible hygiene. Things are very different now. And over half a decade still gives time for the development of a vaccine and treatment, not to mention reproduction. As long as people are reproducing, there is hope for the continuation of the species.

Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
17 hours ago, DannyBoy8 said:

Fullglass, you're obviously the one who needs to brush up on their history and refresh your statistics.

Duration of Black Death: 6 years

Dead: 30-50% of Europe

Like most Americans you obviously don't grasp the concept of compound interest; and therefore, need to be educated on compound depreciation.

A mortality rate of around 8% results in 30-50% of the population dying in 6 years.

6% CFR = 30% of population

10% = approx. 50%

and

15% = 63%

The black death didn't wipe out half of Europe in weeks, months, or even a year. It took over half a decade of slow and steady fatalities.

Species are threatened when there is a slow and steady decline in numbers that outpaces repopulation (birth rate). This is not going to happen overnight.

And to your point about the vaccine. I contend that your statement that we WILL have a vaccine within a year is dangerously optimistic and my attempt to discuss the macro-epidemiology of a gross pandemic pales in comparison to your irresponsible throwing around of a best case scenario as fact.

Frankly, I am shocked you are a nurse. You have no understanding of epidemiology, nor have you studied the history of pandemics.

You presume to lecture me by repeating what I said about how many people in Europe were killed by the "Black Death." Even with that high of a mortality rate, it was NOT an extinction level event!

These pandemics do not go on year after year indefinitely. There are typically 2 waves. We are in the first wave of COVID. There will likely be a 2nd wave unless we develop a vaccince and/or cure and/or treatments before then. The Spanish Flu did not go on ad infinitum, and neither did the Black Death.

Please study some epidemiology so you understand concepts like prevalence, morbidity, and mortality. I studied under Dr. Ralph Frerichs, now Professor Emeritus of Epidemiology at UCLA and former chair of their Epidemiology Dept. He has a great website on Dr. John Snow, considered the father of epidemiology.

https://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow.html

At this point, we don't know the prevalence of COVID, as we have not done enough testing. However, respected scientists estimate the prevalence as 10 to 100 times higher than we think. That makes the mortality a lot lower than many report. The mortality is NOT the current confirmed deaths divided by the current confirmed cases. It is you who need to understand fractions and percentages. The larger the denominator, the smaller the number!

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/

" “We don’t know if we are failing to capture infections by a factor of three or 300,” writes Stanford’s disease prevention expert, John P.A. Ioannidis, in a must-read piece in the authoritative science and medicine website Stat (itself a must-read). The need for better data, obtained through repeated random sampling of the entire population, could not be clearer."

from https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/opinion/coronavirus-data.html

Yes, we need to take COVID-19 seriously and follow CDC guidelines. But this is NOT an extinction level event.

Here is the definition of an extinction level event:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Extinction_level_event

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/ap-biology/natural-selection/extinction/a/surviving-an-extinction-level-event

Before making hysterical/histrionic posts, make sure you understand your terms as well as epidemiology, disease processes, math, and history.

1 hour ago, FullGlass said:

Frankly, I am shocked you are a nurse. You have no understanding of epidemiology, nor have you studied the history of pandemics.

You presume to lecture me by repeating what I said about how many people in Europe were killed by the "Black Death." Even with that high of a mortality rate, it was NOT an extinction level event!

These pandemics do not go on year after year indefinitely. There are typically 2 waves. We are in the first wave of COVID. There will likely be a 2nd wave unless we develop a vaccince and/or cure and/or treatments before then. The Spanish Flu did not go on ad infinitum, and neither did the Black Death.

Please study some epidemiology so you understand concepts like prevalence, morbidity, and mortality. I studied under Dr. Ralph Frerichs, now Professor Emeritus of Epidemiology at UCLA and former chair of their Epidemiology Dept. He has a great website on Dr. John Snow, considered the father of epidemiology.

https://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow.html

At this point, we don't know the prevalence of COVID, as we have not done enough testing. However, respected scientists estimate the prevalence as 10 to 100 times higher than we think. That makes the mortality a lot lower than many report. The mortality is NOT the current confirmed deaths divided by the current confirmed cases. It is you who need to understand fractions and percentages. The larger the denominator, the smaller the number!

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/

" “We don’t know if we are failing to capture infections by a factor of three or 300,” writes Stanford’s disease prevention expert, John P.A. Ioannidis, in a must-read piece in the authoritative science and medicine website Stat (itself a must-read). The need for better data, obtained through repeated random sampling of the entire population, could not be clearer."

from https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/opinion/coronavirus-data.html

Yes, we need to take COVID-19 seriously and follow CDC guidelines. But this is NOT an extinction level event.

Here is the definition of an extinction level event:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Extinction_level_event

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/ap-biology/natural-selection/extinction/a/surviving-an-extinction-level-event

Before making hysterical/histrionic posts, make sure you understand your terms as well as epidemiology, disease processes, math, and history.

I do presume to lecture you because you've failed to make a salient point twice in a row.

You are the one who suggested that I needed to review my math of the black plague, which I did not, as the cited statistics are those that are widely accepted by the historical community. Your initial post suggested that you did not comprehend that half of Europe was wiped out by a disease that had only a CFR between 1 and 16%.

You should review previous posts, because I have engaged with other users and accounted for the fact that we are not capturing the total scale of this pandemic. And subsequently pointed out that even with a smaller CFR, population growth could be significantly stunted if not reversed. I'm not going to go back and forth with you about to what scale our under-surveillance may be, because nobody really knows. But to suggest that it is 100-fold....well, I'm not surprised that you would suggest such a fantastically number given that you're convinced we'll have a vaccine within a year.

Your persona represents a larger problem within this profession. The inability to have a conversation about a controversial topic without becoming sensational (see below). My initial post is rather benign. I wasn't calling for alarm, I simply shared my perspective on some statistics. I asked for thoughts, and I got to see 'nursings best' reply with the finest shade they could throw my way (see below). Heck, I was even being humble and said that I could be wrong. I wasn't predicting that this would absolutely bring about extinction. My prediction was/is that academic epidemiologists will soon be writing about COVID-19 and the threat is poses to our species.

This isn't even close to an extinction event pandemic. Not by a long shot. You do realize that, right?

No. Just.... no. I’m sorry but your math is not accurate here.

Your statistics are wrong. Maybe watching too much MSM?

Listen, DannyBoy. I'm gonna be a big boy about this and tell you to calm ** down. Then I'm going to mansplain this *****to you

They'll give a MSN to anybody now it appears. Sad that a nurse is saying such stupid things.

Dr. Fauci was on video discussing pandemic preparation last and opined that "The truth is that in the beginning of a pandemic, nobody, not even the experts, really knows anything, we're just going day by day". I find it truly hilarious that you would actually try to justify yourself by sharing who you studied under. For what it is worth, I studied under bigger and badder epidemiologists at a far more prestigious institution than UCLA.

My turn to troll: Do me a favor; go back to your CVS, distribute some tessalon perles, and I'll call you if I need a school sports physical for one of my patients. Thanks.

p.s. thanks for the link to a wiki and the khan academy ?

Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
3 hours ago, DannyBoy8 said:

This isn't even close to an extinction event pandemic. Not by a long shot. You do realize that, right?

No. Just.... no. I’m sorry but your math is not accurate here.

Your statistics are wrong. Maybe watching too much MSM?

Listen, DannyBoy. I'm gonna be a big boy about this and tell you to calm ** down. Then I'm going to mansplain this *****to you

They'll give a MSN to anybody now it appears. Sad that a nurse is saying such stupid things.

You provide the above and say it came from me. It didn't. I didn't write those things, someone else did. I suggest you reread the thread to see who wrote what.

Your question is ridiculous. It annoys me because right now we all need to be calm and collected. Trying to stir up panic makes me angry.

You misuse the term "extinction event." The only things that can cause such an event are basically natural disasters such as a meteor hitting the earth, supervolcano explosion, etc. The fatality rate from COVID is far from being able to cause an extinction level event. Yes, if it had a 90% fatality rate and high prevalence, it might qualify. But it does not.

And again, you fail to demonstrate an understanding of epidemiology. There has never been a disease in known history that was an extinction level event for humans.

I am done with you.

Death rate is too high but not high enough for this to be an extinction threat, IMO. Viruses that are this detrimental have a harder time spreading b/c their hosts are either unaffected (so they will never die even if they're reinfected) or critical (you can't spread a disease when you're dead). This is why flu persists- it's deadly but not deadly enough to wipe out its chain of transmission.

Previous coronavirus outbreaks have shown that these types of viruses are not good at proliferating beyond the initial outbreak. I personally think this will be the case with Covid-19. But I tend to be optimistic when it comes to End of the World type scenarios.

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