So, tonight I was talking about the classes I'll be taking this fall at my local community college (one of which is chemistry which I'm a little nervous about since I've never had a chemistry class before) with my wonderful bachelor's degree holding partner who, in an attempt to ease my anxiety makes the comment "Well, it's just at a community college so the class should be pretty easy." Wrong thing to say honey...
It did however get me to thinking about the general attitudes that people have towards not only community colleges but also to vocational/trade schools. That those of us who go to such institutions are intellectually inadequate and wouldn't be able to handle the academic rigors of a 4 year college or university. This attitude is completely inaccurate, after all if my classes were so EASY then the 4 year colleges and universities in my area wouldn't have an articulation agreement which honors the credits I take at the community college. It is a different atmosphere in a community college of course, but that doesn't mean I don't have to learn the material and learn it well in order to pass.
I remember in high school when I decided to enter the Practical Nursing program at the vocational school how I received criticism, statements such as "Well, you need to go to a 4 year college, anything less is for people who are stupid." and even now when I tell people I'm an LPN and that I've been at a community college taking classes I'm greeted with a concerned expression, a half smile, and a polite nod. A voice bubble might as well pop up above their head saying, "Well, since you're a failure at life and this is all you have, I'll be happy for you." after all since I'm going to a community college it means I can't handle REAL academics.
It may sound as though I'm jealous of those who get to receive a university education and have a bachelor's degree or above and are the same age as myself. And, yes, at times I am jealous because I would have loved to have had the same experience. But that simply just wasn't my path, one day I will "pull my time" in a four year college, my path will take me there, just not yet.
I believe no matter your credentials, whether you're doctorate degree holding FNP or a certificate holding CNA that you should be incredibly proud. Whether you're bachelor's prepared RN or a diploma holding LPN you should be proud. Because all levels of education should be revered and respected and valued. I don't feel ashamed of not already being a Registered Nurse or a college graduate nor do I have any regret at first becoming a CNA and then becoming an LPN because I still am helping people and I am still living my dream and that dream was to be independent. If you're a BSN or an ADN be PROUD of it no matter what your credentials are because you earned them.
College graduates face really discouraging odds. Many are unemployed, many more are employed in something other than their field of study, and many still are up to their eyeballs in debt. My partner for instance has a bachelor's degree yet works in job making a little over minimum wage. That is why I chose the path I did. When I was 17 and I enrolled in the LPN program, I knew due to my personal and financial circumstances that I couldn't afford to go to college just yet, I needed to be self sufficient and going to a trade school and later to a community college would allow me to do that. It wasn't the right choice for everyone but it was for me, and because of that I can pay for my school one semester at a time while minimizing and most semesters avoiding student loans, not to mention a few years head start on 401k versus my peers and that feels really good.
A dear friend of mine always wanted to be a mechanic, her family, peers, etc were not supportive "only stupid people do something like that" so instead she got 2 bachelor's degrees, is jobless, and owes thousands of dollars in student loans. All this because her dream was too "stupid" in the eyes of her parents and everyone else. Side not, I know many mechanics who make more money than I do and they're all pretty happy. I think the attitude that you go to college to "make a better life for yourself" isn't always accurate. We shouldn't be telling our children that they have to go to college in order to be considered intelligent or successful. We should be telling them that in this world success isn't defined by your credentials or where you went to school or how much money you make, it's defined by getting out of life what you make of it and what you want from it. Do what you love people, whether you're a CNA or a Medical Doctor, do what you love and love what you do and be proud but above all else never assume that someone is stupid simply because their education is different from yours.
Whew... feels good to get that out.
Oh and my partner quickly apologized for what he said. Probably had something to do with the fact I spouted off this little speech in the course of sixty seconds after his comment.
i totally agree with everything you said, BUT maybe your friend didn't mean it as though "you must be stupid."
i got an associate's degree from a community college, a bachelor's degree from a university, and then a second bachelor's (in nursing) at a university. i have to say, my first semester of nursing courses at university hit me like a ton of bricks! i graduaded at the top of my class with my previous degrees and i didn't foresee nursing being much different. i am not someone who cries and i had never cried bc of anything related to school. i cried my way through pathophysiology. it just so happens that pathophysiology is a class that you don't have to take if you go to community college. do you still get a degree and get to work as a nurse? YES and that's all that matters. would i ever be caught saying it would be "easier" to take the courses at CC - YES. it doesn't mean anything other than what it is - BS nurses have to take a few courses that are generally perceived as being difficult. a lot of people fail those select courses and end up going to CC where they can still be a nurse and not have to take them. i thought i might be one of those people and i'm far from "stupid." it just would've been easier had i failed the class to go to CC where i wouldn't have to take the class, and i could still be a nurse. i wouldn't take it so personally.
.... it's just the generalization that cc's or adn's are the "easy way out" (look at the comment made to me by my guidance counselor!). for whatever reason they get a bad rep, it's undeserved....
any good instructor (and course) is worth it's weight in gold, whether it's at a cc or a university.
cc's or adn are the "easy way"....that reminds me of an interview for an extership placement i was seekig in another bachelor's degree after obtaining my nursing degree. at the begining of the interview, this licensed 'professional' asked me to tell a little about myself. i mentioned i was a nurse and had graduated from the same university as this 'professional' was employed. the professional stated that she had a masters in ______ and had also worked in acute care as a _________. in her opinion my license would not help me because "all nurses did was empty bed pans, give baths, and pass meds." could you imagine! i needed this "professional's" assistance to obtain my externship so i bit my tongue while thinking ******* (fill in the appropriate thought). clearly, this person learned nothing during her work in acute care. goes to show that even those who graduated with higher degrees can have foolish opinions--and that includes opinions about adn or bsn programs.
cc's or adn are the "easy way"....that reminds me of an interview for an extership placement i was seekig in another bachelor's degree after obtaining my nursing degree. at the begining of the interview, this licensed 'professional' asked me to tell a little about myself. i mentioned i was a nurse and had graduated from the same university as this 'professional' was employed. the professional stated that she had a masters in ______ and had also worked in acute care as a _________. in her opinion my license would not help me because "all nurses did was empty bed pans, give baths, and pass meds." could you imagine! i needed this "professional's" assistance to obtain my externship so i bit my tongue while thinking ******* (fill in the appropriate thought). clearly, this person learned nothing during her work in acute care. goes to show that even those who graduated with higher degrees can have foolish opinions--and that includes opinions about adn or bsn programs.
and, in the future, if i found myself nursing for this individual...........i would remind her..........."i only empty bedpans, give baths and pass meds. if you have any other needs arise during the night, you will have to wait till the morning when the doctor rounds to discuss them. have a good night."
AMEN! I could not agree more. I do not do well with the "better than thou b/c I have better degree" types.
I certainly won't feel stupid when I graduate from my community college and pass the same nclex the same university student has to pass at oh, just a few $1000 cheaper. :)
Nursing has gotten to lost in the BSN vs. ASN debate. A quality nurse, with good assessment and critical thinking skills, is a team player, and provides compassionate patient care is priceless. I am an ASN RN and plan to go back to get my BSN when I am ready. Right now I find attending advanced classes in my nursing speciality serves my patients and team members better than a BSN education.
General Manager? Of a sports team? You made bucco bucs. And you went GM 2 RN? Eh, you must have done something very bad and now you are making up for it (overcompensation).
Nursing has gotten to lost in the BSN vs. ASN debate. A quality nurse, with good assessment and critical thinking skills, is a team player, and provides compassionate patient care is priceless. I am an ASN RN and plan to go back to get my BSN when I am ready. Right now I find attending advanced classes in my nursing speciality serves my patients and team members better than a BSN education.
I think a reorganization of the licenses would not be a bad idea. I think a lot of the debate about the differences stems from there being too many of them and lack of defined roles.
I would suggest:
1. Grandfather current LPNs into the ADN license. If it makes things better, offer short classes to discuss the academia differences and put some training into the class so there is a smooth conversion. Lets face it, after 5 or so years, the differences between the two are.........well, its like looking for a needle in a haystack. And, of course, stop graduating new LPNs.
2. Allow the new definition of ADNs to be what is considered the "bedside" nurse. They may fill the "charge nurse" role, but the Nurse Practice Act should include parameters on what sorts of managerial positions they may fill. Said parameters should reflect the differences between "charge nurse" and a management position. For example, being in charge of staffing for the next shift and overseeing 4 or 5 other nurses is acceptable, on the other hand..............being in a LTC facility in charge of doing 100 assessments while "med techs" pass meds isn't.
3. Eliminate the BSN degree. Its a myth anyway. They are in limbo.................not different enough from the ADN to really claim any tangible difference, but not as educated as the MSN nurse. Overqualified for bedside care, under qualified for the MSN roles. Remove the confusion by removing the degree. Current BSN trained nurses should be given a time frame to complete their MSN education (with a great amt. of tuition reimbursement) and if they don't complete it in time............they are now ADNs, sorry for you luck.
4. MSN nurses would be considered the administrative nurses. They would perform management roles (yes, I just raised the bar for unit managers from BSN to MSN) and other administrative duties. The thought process would be that, as administrators, they will be in a position to help mold healthcare with the voices of nurses being heard. The educational tract for MSN should include a high standard/requirement of clinical experience that is varied (not simply someone who squatted on a M/S or Ortho unit for 15 years) and involves bedside nursing along with other roles (charge nurse, community education, positions on a board: quality improvement, risk management etc).
5. Doctorate degree nurses are, well.........kinda like they are now. DON, school directors and teachers. These are the people we want speaking for our profession more than anyone else.
Its a fairy tale, I know. But gosh, can you imagine AN during and after these changes. People will log on, do a search and find "ADN vs. BSN" and say "What? What are they fighting about? This stuff is ancient." lol
That sounds like a step (or several steps) in the wrong direction. We should be raising standards across the board. Higher education for entry to practice, higher standards for entry to nursing programs, more difficult initial NCLEX, more numerous and more rigorous continuing ed, as well as required retesting at intervals to maintain licensure. Not less than, more than. More standards, more rigor, more checks and balances to assure competency.
I don't understand why anyone think the bare minimum should be good enough. We should be demanding more of ourselves, and our profession so that we can demand more for ourselves and our profession. In the end, everyone benefits. Leave it as it is, and we are stuck with the same substandard to mediocre continuum, which I think is unacceptable and reflects poorly on all of us.
That sounds like a step (or several steps) in the wrong direction. We should be raising standards across the board. Higher education for entry to practice, higher standards for entry to nursing programs, more difficult initial NCLEX, more numerous and more rigorous continuing ed, as well as required retesting at intervals to maintain licensure. Not less than, more than. More standards, more rigor, more checks and balances to assure competency.
I don't understand why anyone think the bare minimum should be good enough. We should be demanding more of ourselves, and our profession so that we can demand more for ourselves and our profession. In the end, everyone benefits. Leave it as it is, and we are stuck with the same substandard to mediocre continuum, which I think is unacceptable and reflects poorly on all of us.
I think it does raise the standard:
Bedside - No longer LPN and/or ADN. Just ADN.
Managerial - No longer BSN or MSN. Just MSN.
Also, min. requirement for unit manager is now MSN, no more BSN in that role (well, BSN wouldn't exist soooo...).
I think too it would motivate more ADNs to go forward with their education towards MSN. A lot of nurses would want to get away from the physical demands of bedside nursing, and would work towards the MSN in hopes of getting something that better suits them.
Or................you could tweak a couple steps if that isn't right. Step #1 would be HUGE, but it could work.
1. Eliminate LPN and ADN, make BSN the min. requirement for bedside nursing, but BSN is no longer considered "management material". This would affect more people initially but still removes the same number of degrees and allows for more defined roles.
Use the same system I described for if you eliminate ADN. Give a time frame for getting your BSN, hopefully include much tuition assistance and if they don't get it done on time.................sorry for your luck.
Specializes in Mental health, substance abuse, geriatrics, PCU.
I agree that some form of restructuring needs to occur with nurses. Even though I am an LPN I often wonder if it would be better to have one defined entry way into nursing. That being said, I think that the role of the LPN and the scope of practice desperately needs to be reformed. Twenty to thirty years ago it wasn't a big deal if an LPN couldn't push/hang certain IV meds because IV's weren't as common as they are now. The acuity of our patients have changed but our scope of practices hasn't been and that's one of the main reasons we are so underutilized. It's also crazy how widely the scope of practice is different from state to state and even facility to facility, that's just too much confusion in my opinion!
A couple posters stated they worried this would turn into an ADN vs BSN debate and I really hope it doesn't. As I've stated all levels of education should be valued and respected because we've all worked hard to get where we're at.
I agree that some form of restructuring needs to occur with nurses. Even though I am an LPN I often wonder if it would be better to have one defined entry way into nursing. That being said, I think that the role of the LPN and the scope of practice desperately needs to be reformed. Twenty to thirty years ago it wasn't a big deal if an LPN couldn't push/hang certain IV meds because IV's weren't as common as they are now. The acuity of our patients have changed but our scope of practices hasn't been and that's one of the main reasons we are so underutilized. It's also crazy how widely the scope of practice is different from state to state and even facility to facility, that's just too much confusion in my opinion!
A couple posters stated they worried this would turn into an ADN vs BSN debate and I really hope it doesn't. As I've stated all levels of education should be valued and respected because we've all worked hard to get where we're at.
I actually had not considered this before, but I see the wisdom in it now that its been pointed out/worded well for me. I like it. It certainly is another reason to reshape/reform/restructure our pecking order and its definitions (or scope of practice).
Wrong thing to say honey... 
JSlovex2
218 Posts
i totally agree with everything you said, BUT maybe your friend didn't mean it as though "you must be stupid."
i got an associate's degree from a community college, a bachelor's degree from a university, and then a second bachelor's (in nursing) at a university. i have to say, my first semester of nursing courses at university hit me like a ton of bricks! i graduaded at the top of my class with my previous degrees and i didn't foresee nursing being much different. i am not someone who cries and i had never cried bc of anything related to school. i cried my way through pathophysiology. it just so happens that pathophysiology is a class that you don't have to take if you go to community college. do you still get a degree and get to work as a nurse? YES and that's all that matters. would i ever be caught saying it would be "easier" to take the courses at CC - YES. it doesn't mean anything other than what it is - BS nurses have to take a few courses that are generally perceived as being difficult. a lot of people fail those select courses and end up going to CC where they can still be a nurse and not have to take them. i thought i might be one of those people and i'm far from "stupid." it just would've been easier had i failed the class to go to CC where i wouldn't have to take the class, and i could still be a nurse. i wouldn't take it so personally.