Chronic COPD'er, 1 lung, 02 @ 6L/min. What would you do?

Nurses General Nursing

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  1. Chronic COPD'er, 1 lung, 02 @ 6L, What would you do?

    • I think the Paramedic was right to increase the 02 to 6L. I am a Nurse.
    • I think the Paramedic was right to increase the 02 to 6L. I am a Paramedic or EMT.
    • I think ultimately the patients wished should have been honored. I am a Nurse.
    • I think ultimately the patients wishes should have been honored. I am a Paramedic or EMT.
    • I think the Paramedic should be reported to her agency for ignoring everyone. I am a Nurse.
    • I think the Paramedic should be reported to her agency for ignoring everyone. Paramedic/EMT.
    • I think this was a true emergency situation. I am a Nurse.
    • I think this was a true emergency situation. I am a Paramedic or EMT
    • I don't know, it's all too confusing
    • Leave me out of it. I don't want to participate.

148 members have participated

I got a call to go see one of my HH patients, who I am very familar with, because the family reported that her/his 02 sats were hanging in the 70's all day and even though she/he was not SOB they felt it should be coming up after breathing treatments and wanted to call before it got too late in the evening.

She/he is a chronic COPD'er, who has only one lung, who functions well with 02 sats in the low 80's. She/he has 02 BNC @ 2.5L/min. When I got there she/he was sitting up talking to me. She/he said she/he didn't feel in the least SOB, 02 sat was 73%, Temp 102 and her/his one lung was full of wheezes. I felt as though she/he should go to the hospital but that it was not an emergency situation. The family fully agreed. They said she/he preferred to go by ambulance so she/he wouldn't have to sit in the ER. I agreed. We called 911.

An EMT got there and asked what was going on. I told him. A few minutes later the ambulance got there and a paramedic came in. She saw me but asked the EMT what was going on. "Oh my God a sat of 73% crank her up to 6L/min. I said no. I explained why. She said "well we have to get her 02 sat up because she's not perfusing 02 to her brain. I said she's talking to you. Please do not turn her up to 6L/min you'll do more harm. She did it anyway. The daughter said "the last time you guys did this she/he ended up with a CO2 of 134 and ended up on a ventilator". The patient said please don't do this to me. The paramedic ignored everyone. The EMT turned it back down to 2L/min the paramedic saw it and turned it back up to 6L/min. She told the patient she would put her/him on a non-rebreather once they got her/him in the ambulance!

I was told that once the paramedics arrive they are in charge and what they do is their responsibility but how ignorant to not listen to the nurse, the family and the patient?

I will make sure this paramedic gets reported. I wonder what you guys thoughts are?

Specializes in Day Surgery/Infusion/ED.

Let's go back to the second para. of the OP:

She/he is a chronic COPD'er, who has only one lung, who functions well with 02 sats in the low 80's. She/he has 02 BNC @ 2.5L/min. When I got there she/he was sitting up talking to me. She/he said she/he didn't feel in the least SOB, 02 sat was 73%, Temp 102 and her/his one lung was full of wheezes. I felt as though she/he should go to the hospital but that it was not an emergency situation. The family fully agreed. They said she/he preferred to go by ambulance so she/he wouldn't have to sit in the ER. I agreed. We called 911.

In spite of the clinical picture, the HHN felt the situation was non-emergent. She activated 911 because she and the family didn't want the pt to "have to sit in the ER."

There have been many posts that have expressed alarm over the pt not being assessed as in distress. None of us were there to actually assess the pt, but based on the findings posted, many of us were in total disagreement with this being seen as a non-emergent situation.

The main point that I got from the OP was that she was put out that the paramedic didn't follow her directions. What she failed to see was that she had a clearly deteriorating pt in front of her. Her follow up posts had more to do with proving she was "right" than listening to the advice from others who saw the situation for what it was.

so what did she die from?

Specializes in OB, M/S, HH, Medical Imaging RN.

chronic copd'er, 1 lung, 02 @ 6l/min. what would you do?

you asked for it and here it is. it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

there are answers for nurses and for paramedics. you can choose more than one answer.

for those of you who have no clue: i am a hh nurse. i had a patient who is a chronic copd'er, smoked 3 packs a day (45+ years). normal 02 sat in the low 80's. has 02 bnc @ 2l/min. has a doctor's order to never increase the 02 above 2.5l/min. when i arrived at the patient's home, 02 sat was 73% and had been in the low 70's for the entire day. pt was alert & oriented, said they had no sob, was sitting up playing cards with the daughter when i arrived. the one lung was full of wheezes. i wanted this pt to go to the er more because of the wheezing and temp of 102 than because of the 02 sat. the patient reluctantly agreed to go. the family agreed. they refused to take her in the car because they felt the pt would have to sit in the waiting room because pt didn't appear sick or in any distress. also refused because the pt had just been released from the hosp two days prior with a shoulder broken in 3 places and surgery could not be done due to severe osteoporosis and fragile respiratory status. we decided to call 911.

paramedic arrived. heard the stats "oh my god a sat of 73%, turn the 02 up to 6l". i asked the paramedic not to do that. i advised her of the doctors order. the daughter stated "my mom's co2 went to 134 the last time she was transported with 6l of oxygen, please do not turn it up that high". the patient said to the paramedic. "please don't do that to me". i had been unable to reach the doctor due to a faulty answering service, all i could get was a fax tone. i called the hospital to confirm i had the correct contact number and it was confirmed. i wanted to ask the doctor if this pt could be a direct admit. i was out of luck. the family was refusing to transport so 911 was the choice i made. we were all calm and relaxed in making these decisions, no anxiety was involved. once the paramedic arrived, the anxiety level went sky high, things happened very quickly and the patient was on the way. my issue was that the paramedic totally ignored me, the doctors order, the grown daughter who is dpoa, and the pt's wishes. at the time i believed the increase in o2 would harm the patient. that factored in with my anxiety as well. i think everyone is curious as what this poll will show. remember you can choose more than one answer.

dx:

steroid induced acute hemorrhagic pancreatitis.

who would have thought? even with all the available tests/tools available in the hospital only her respiratory status and infectious status were looked at and treated. i did create a poll regarding this matter in case you are interested. i have learned alot, from both sides. i thank you all for that. it has been hard to lose this patient that i had become very fond of.

Specializes in PICU, surgical post-op.

Kudos to DutchGirl for coming into this debate all fired up and leaving it having learned something. I think we can all take your example and run with it. Yes, we get emotional and we get involved in what we do. But one of the great things about these boards is that they give us a place to step back, take a breath, hear some opinions and learn from one another.

DutchGirl, I'm so sorry to hear that your patient passed away. It's rough to lose someone you've become close to.

I will say this "one last time" her sats had been in the low 70's all day. She had breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Shopped on e-bay, Watched a movie and was sitting up playing cards with her daughter when I arrived. Mentating. Yes she definately was!

I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post. I was referring to the many posts on this thread which have talked about how a patient can deceptively appear to be mentating when they're really not.

:typing

Specializes in Lie detection.
steroid induced acute hemorrhagic pancreatitis.

who would have thought? even with all the available tests/tools available in the hospital only her respiratory status and infectious status were looked at and treated. i did create a poll regarding this matter in case you are interested. i have learned alot, from both sides. i thank you all for that. it has been hard to lose this patient that i had become very fond of.

i'm sorry to hear about your pt. thank you for sharing this case with us, i too learned something as well.

Specializes in ICU, PACU, Cath Lab.

DutchGirl...I am sorry for the loss of your patient! I too learned alot from this thread, and I am sure many others did as well. Once again I am sorry for the loss.

Specializes in Emergency Room.

Wow. I don't think I would have ever come up with that one. I also would like to commend you - many OPs run away and never return to their posts once things start to get a little hairy. I too feel like I've learned something....a good review of acid base balance in COPD for starters. And this was definitely a thread that got us thinking for sure!

Wishing you peace and a relaxing weekend. PS - I'm very glad there are people like you to do HHN. I can't do it!

I'll echo what other have said: sorry to hear about your patient, DutchGirl, but WOW, has this thread been an education!

Did it take an autopsy to discover the pancreatitis?

Shows that even doctors can really, really blow it now and then. But given the WBC count, yeah, I certainly would have thought some sort of sepsis.

Specializes in OB, M/S, HH, Medical Imaging RN.
Is there a way to turn this debate into a poll to see where the majority of people fall? It would also be interesting if we could tie in the response to what area of nursing you worked in also...Just a thought

Your wish is my command.......https://allnurses.com/forums/f118/chronic-copder-1-lung-02-6l-min-what-would-you-do-204677.html

Specializes in Rehab, LTC, Peds, Hospice.

We just had a schizophrenic patient in our vent unit in resp distress refuse to go to the hospital. Full code. The paramedics refused to take her. A psych consult was pending to determine competancy. Meanwhile, has no guardian or POA either. I"m curious what everyone thinks about that situation? Right thing to do? Sats in the 70's -80's still apply, don't they, regarding her ability to still be competant? Don't know the outcome, yet. (Not my unit) I know that when I had a similar situation, the paramedics said they'd be back if my patient had a change in conciousness, I guess because it wouldn't be up for discussion!

Specializes in Rehab, LTC, Peds, Hospice.
:clown: The poll is very cool!
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