Chronic COPD'er, 1 lung, 02 @ 6L/min. What would you do?

Nurses General Nursing

Published

  1. Chronic COPD'er, 1 lung, 02 @ 6L, What would you do?

    • I think the Paramedic was right to increase the 02 to 6L. I am a Nurse.
    • I think the Paramedic was right to increase the 02 to 6L. I am a Paramedic or EMT.
    • I think ultimately the patients wished should have been honored. I am a Nurse.
    • I think ultimately the patients wishes should have been honored. I am a Paramedic or EMT.
    • I think the Paramedic should be reported to her agency for ignoring everyone. I am a Nurse.
    • I think the Paramedic should be reported to her agency for ignoring everyone. Paramedic/EMT.
    • I think this was a true emergency situation. I am a Nurse.
    • I think this was a true emergency situation. I am a Paramedic or EMT
    • I don't know, it's all too confusing
    • Leave me out of it. I don't want to participate.

148 members have participated

I got a call to go see one of my HH patients, who I am very familar with, because the family reported that her/his 02 sats were hanging in the 70's all day and even though she/he was not SOB they felt it should be coming up after breathing treatments and wanted to call before it got too late in the evening.

She/he is a chronic COPD'er, who has only one lung, who functions well with 02 sats in the low 80's. She/he has 02 BNC @ 2.5L/min. When I got there she/he was sitting up talking to me. She/he said she/he didn't feel in the least SOB, 02 sat was 73%, Temp 102 and her/his one lung was full of wheezes. I felt as though she/he should go to the hospital but that it was not an emergency situation. The family fully agreed. They said she/he preferred to go by ambulance so she/he wouldn't have to sit in the ER. I agreed. We called 911.

An EMT got there and asked what was going on. I told him. A few minutes later the ambulance got there and a paramedic came in. She saw me but asked the EMT what was going on. "Oh my God a sat of 73% crank her up to 6L/min. I said no. I explained why. She said "well we have to get her 02 sat up because she's not perfusing 02 to her brain. I said she's talking to you. Please do not turn her up to 6L/min you'll do more harm. She did it anyway. The daughter said "the last time you guys did this she/he ended up with a CO2 of 134 and ended up on a ventilator". The patient said please don't do this to me. The paramedic ignored everyone. The EMT turned it back down to 2L/min the paramedic saw it and turned it back up to 6L/min. She told the patient she would put her/him on a non-rebreather once they got her/him in the ambulance!

I was told that once the paramedics arrive they are in charge and what they do is their responsibility but how ignorant to not listen to the nurse, the family and the patient?

I will make sure this paramedic gets reported. I wonder what you guys thoughts are?

Specializes in Flight, ER, Transport, ICU/Critical Care.

Nah, not my "own" purpose...but patient centered care!

Lets see..the solution would let her just keep getting hypoxic --- then she passes out and NOW...TA DA - NO NEED FOR REFUSAL ... I just messed up. TRUE ACLS and Emergency Care is CODE PREVENTION...NOT just CODE PERFORMANCE.

What part of IN EXTEREMIS do you not understand?

What part of an "excited utterance" is difficult to understand?

That is the rub with critical states...patients nearing the "end game" are not capable for the authority as to specific procedures. "No no oxygen", "no don't touch my leg" (from the multi-trauma hypovolemic patient as I'm getting ready to reduce that open femur fx). Sure NO may mean NO, but when altered patient states/failure to treat are involved ... the only NO that matters is what I KNOW.

When you call, you by proxy allow EMERGENCY TREATMENT by 911 providers. Implied consent definition (for the record) - a manifestation of consent/acceptance of something through conduct or action, including silence.

But, before we go down the "slippery slope" lets see how competence is decided as to ability to direct one's care. I'll bet there is not a LEGAL AUTHORITY in this country --- State, Federal District, Federal Circuit, US Supreme Court that will hold that a patient in the throws of an emergent illness with marked hypoxemia will be able to make an INFORMED DECISION!

Practice SAFE!

;)

Specializes in Flight, ER, Transport, ICU/Critical Care.

canoehead - great post.

Yes, we can all debate.

But, I get have SECONDS to make good decisions in the field - so I do NOT argue, debate, allow freelancing ... if it's my decision ... I WILL MAKE IT.

But the bottom line is just as you stated. NO DISCUSSION. I DON'T KNOW WHO IS RIGHT WHEN CONFLICTING FACTIONS ARE ON SCENE - The patient wants this, one kid that, a granddaughter something else. ENOUGH. If the patient is sick and no reasonable, prudent refusal - WE ARE GOING TO THE HOSPITAL.

I KNOW THAT DEATH IS VERY STILL...SO SOMETIMES YOU GOTTA MOVE FAST! ;)

Specializes in ER.
canoehead - great post.

Ha! I was just thinking that about your post. Finally! An agreement on this thread. lol

Specializes in Emergency Room.

This was obviously not a black and white situation for the medic. "Do I assume the pt is competent and completely aware of all pathophysiology, potential risks and complications, ignore the sat of 73% and forgo oxygen, or do I make the choice to treat now (knowing that 15 minutes of Os isn't going to knock out a COPD pt's drive to breathe) and oxygenate this patient's brain?"

And yes, part of EVERYONE'S practice is dictated by the risk for lawsuits. In this case, you would be putting your license on the line on the assumption that a pt was mentating properly with a sat of 73%.

Well ... the posters on this thread have convinced me on the consent issue. At the end of the day, any court or regulatory board is probably not going frown upon saving the patient's life, even if it temporarily violated consent.

The bottom line is the outcome which was: the patient needed to be vented and the patient obviously agreed to that so ... a temporary consent violation of 6L O2 for a 15 minute ambulance ride probably isn't going to be a viewed as big deal in the scheme of things.

If anything, the ABG's and vent probably proves that the patient wasn't as coherent as previously thought ... so erring on the side of caution, so to speak, was obviously the right call.

:typing

Specializes in OB, M/S, HH, Medical Imaging RN.

This patient died today. She had been weaned from the vent. Her admit CO2 level was 162. She was on the acute med floor. Venti-mask @ 24%, CO2 level 44. WBC 2.7 Blood Cultures negative. Continued temp, was started on Dopamine.

Anyone wanna guess what was the cause of death?

**No it had nothing to do with the 02 and her respiratory status** Let me be quite clear on that.

Specializes in Emergency & Trauma/Adult ICU.

Wishing peace for the patient's family, and for you DutchgirlRN.

Specializes in Emergency Dept.

Okay . . . so the paramedic has their protocols to follow and the nurse knows the history to try to inform them. I can understand both sides of that - Paramedic worried about the low sat, nurse worried about the COPD. The part that I think the paramedic does need written up for is the same thing ANYONE in the medical profession should get written up for. An alert and oriented patient refuses a portion of medical care and the medic FORCES it upon them. It doesn't sound like this was a factor of suicide or an impairment by drugs or alcohol. They broke one of the patient's most fundamental rights.

Specializes in OB, M/S, HH, Medical Imaging RN.
If anything, the ABG's and vent probably proves that the patient wasn't as coherent as previously thought ... so erring on the side of caution, so to speak, was obviously the right call.:typing

I will say this "one last time" her sats had been in the low 70's all day. She had breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Shopped on e-bay, Watched a movie and was sitting up playing cards with her daughter when I arrived. Mentating. Yes she definately was!

Specializes in Anesthesia.
This patient died today. She had been weaned from the vent. Her admit CO2 level was 162. She was on the acute med floor. Venti-mask @ 24%, CO2 level 44. WBC 2.7 Blood Cultures negative. Continued temp, was started on Dopamine.

Anyone wanna guess what was the cause of death?

**No it had nothing to do with the 02 and her respiratory status** Let me be quite clear on that.

What did she die of....? I am kinda of thinking cancer, but who knows. Since she was probably on steroids she could have also been septic/immunosuppressed. Also, was cause of death based on autopsy or just most likely cause per the physician?

One more question. Do you really think that the increased FiO2 in this patient over that short amount of time made any real difference in their outcome?

I am not trying to be sarcastic...just wondering.

Specializes in OB, M/S, HH, Medical Imaging RN.
You even went so far as to call the ED doctor to attempt to direct care - so I know you were clearly vested in BEING RIGHT.

No wrong....I was vested in my pt's best interest.

Would I do it again? No, thanks to many of you I realize that 6L in the short term will not hurt the pt.

My thanks to the other posters - I have learned a lot. I know that we may have differing views, but THANKFULLY we do!

Please practice SAFE!

;)

Yes, I have learned alot too.

Specializes in Utilization Management.

Sounds like it went into a cardiac problem, but I'm just guessing something so you'll give in and tell us. ;)

I'm so sorry that she didn't make it, Dutchgirl.

+ Add a Comment