I have been a RN since 1989, graduated with a ASN. Since that time I worked in ICU, Open heart surgery, PICU, Med/Surg and Behavioral Health. I have had the pleasure to have worked as a Nurse Executive only to be told after 25 years to get a BSN. I have a BS in Public Policy and Organizational Leadership and Master of Arts in Theology/Counseling. I asked my employee why after working 13 years a their Executive Nurse on Med/Surg/Peds that they thought I needed a BSN. No answer just demands or lose my job. I told them to stuff it! At 57 I was not going back to school for a BSN when it would only achieve increasing my debt ratio.
Since then I haven't been able to hire on anywhere but a Nursing Home. Let me tell you it is a blessing to work in geriatrics, yet the BSN's that work there are clueless, needing alot of training and retraining which I don't mind doing. It just saddens me that at the end of my career Nursing still has its quirks like they did in the 80's. Remember the period when medical assistants where hired to work in ICUs? That fiasco lasted less then a year.
God bless all of you who have had to face this new fiasco of BSN only apply. I am wondering who agrees with BSN only need to apply?
I wonder how they would respond if they weren't grandfathered. Of course the nurses with a 2 year degree and diplomas were also told they would be grandfathered in....until they realized how much they could make on tuition.
There is a difference between licensure and employment. All licensed RNs would be grandfathered in to keep their RN license. As would NPs. I have been told my MSN would grandfather me into a lifetime of licensing provided I never lapse. My employer has never promised me lifetime employment.
Esme is right, I've seen job postings lately in some bit cities that say BSN required, MSN preferred. I don't know how long it will take, but eventually a Master's will be required to work bedside.
The bothersome part about degree inflation is the fact that nurses still get paid as though they have a technical degree. I know I only make about thirt cents more than an ultrasound or X-ray tech at my hospital, and I have a BSN.
So for something they think is so important, it doesn't seem to actually be worth much.
Sorry, but if Masters-prepared nurses accept this, then the bedside is where they should be. What is the point of paying megabucks in tuition to make it to square one? Who in the hell is sitting so high up on the **** horse that he or she feels s/he can keep everybody else 'in their place'? How dare any 'highest-degreed' (pardon my terminology, but receiving this BSN hasn't changed who I am) bottom-line RN decide that just because he, she, or they had money to stay in or return to school for a hundred years past freshman stage makes them so much more important and the rest of us a bunch of expendable nobodies?
The leaders of nurses were/are supposed to help 'manage-up' and support the profession as a whole, thereby improving patient outcomes, or so I thought....not implement 'preferences' that will eventually lead to an annihilation. It does not take a masters degree to shove a pile of **** down the toilet. I learned how to toss cow chips and side-step manure in my grandDaddy's pastures before I could spell the **** (no pun intended). A masters-prepared nurse shoveling bedpans as entry level can't tell me a **** thing! That is the quickest way to show what a joke it is to be a nurse in the public eye. How can anyone say that they have 'mastered' nursing in this case when all they've done was get through the front door. At my age, I will be dead and gone when this happens...thank the Almighty (or blame the inexperienced, new grad nurse with the MSN).
It is high time (or past time) we stand up for what is right because somebody somewhere is on one hell of an ego trip to make these demands.
Now, I know I just went ballistic on something that has not happened (yet), but my anger, more like my passion, is because my parents sacrificed to put me through LPN school years ago when we already had nothing; I sacrificed to put myself through college when I had nothing (and lost a little more in the process) because of the attitudes towards LPNs; sacrificed (casually) to once again put myself through another nursing (BSN) program because then, even the ASN that led to the RN licesne wasn't worth the paper it was written on (while I had just a little less nothing than before), only to hear that somewhere, they've started a MSN-preferred trend out in the horizon. Sooner or later, the **** gonna backfire in that people are going to stop sacrificing to enter or remain in a profession that cares so little for its members. When that happens, Dr. Nurse will be the bedside nurse....up **** creek without a paddle.
Whoever is doing this cannot do it without our help. Being passive, we are helping them to belittle us and our hard-earned knowledge that was acquired with/through years of blood, sweat, tears, puke, sputum, etc. Our profession doesn't belong to the ANA or the State Board of Nurses because we are them. Without us, they would cease to exist. They are exceedingly out-numbered, yet they are being allowed to run over the masses. Leaders cannot lead if they have no followers.....don't need a certificate, diploma, associates, bachelors, masters, or doctorate degree to know that. Some things will never replace common sense. After all, how many times have any of you read a new policy and that one question came out of your mouth or popped into your head: "what ******* sense does that make?"
Disclaimer: I hope my excessive use of asterisks doesn't offend anyone. I changed the tone A LOT by replacing the ##!$&@@'s. I won't be offended if my edits are edited even more.
Here is a perfect example, like myself, of age discrimination and degree inflation.
OP...your employer just wants to pay an inexperienced RN, with a online masters degree, less and get rid of you, and your salary/benefits, easily without severance.
YOUNG NURSES PAY ATTENTION HERE! THIS IS YOUR FUTURE. It might be a BSN now...the future will be a masters for $40,000.00+ to keep your bedside job.
Respectfully, I think this is better addressed to older nurses. Young nurses, many of whom are coming to nursing AFTER the economy tanked, already know that there is no such thing as employer loyalty. We already know there's a nursing glut, and employers can pick and choose whatever requirements they can think of. Those of us who were forced out of another career have already had a hard lesson in what employers want, and what they can do. (My first career ended due to degree inflation, no less!)
It honestly seems like younger nurses - the ones who truly want to be nurses long-term, and not just as a temporary fall-back in the mythical "nursing shortage" - are willing to put in the educational busywork to get a BSN or whatever's needed to make themselves most appealing to employers. Older nurses, who worked back in the "good ole days" of spousal benefits and adequate staffing and "last in, first out" . . . they're expecting companies to honor unwritten expectations that have expired.
(Completely off-topic but . . . holy guacamole. I start to type and my mother's quirks come out. I thought that only happened when I talk!)
I think the way your employer handled that was not really fair, but I do think a BSN should be required for certain types of nursing, such as in public health, case management, instructors - educators. However, you should have been "grandfathered in" somehow, after all those years in the unit.
Not necessarily true. Master's-prepared advanced practice nurses are being told that we will be grandfathered in (won't lose our existing licenses), but it remains to be seen how that will shake out in real life. We do know what happened when NP programs officially went from being certificate programs to being Master's programs. The states all switched to requiring MSNs for licensure, and existing certificate-prepared NPs were grandfathered in and maintained their licensure as NPs. However, when they wanted to move to another state, they found they were unable to get licensed in the new state because the requirement was now for an MSN, and the remaining certificate-prepared NPs found that they were trapped in their current state unless they wanted to just work as generalist RNs. There's currently no indication that any state is considering changing to requiring DNP for advanced practice licensure, but there's also no guarantee that won't happen in the future. There's also no guarantee that employers won't decide they only want to hire DNP-prepared advanced practice nurses.
I chose a non-APRN track for my MSN because I knew I would be graduating after the 2015 deadline for DNP entry. I figured I could always go back to school (again) for the DNP if that was my choice. Interestingly, I discovered that won't be an option. The DNP can only be in what I specialized in for my master's. So if I want to become a NP, CNS or any other practice specialty I have to start all over. One university (UCLA) offers a post master's cert for CNS, two years, no degree. I have only found one program that grants a DNP in a new specialty- Rush.
Interestingly the education I received for my ADN at the local community college was better than the one I received for my BSN. The RN to BSN was just the same classes I already had in my ADN without clinical. The MSN is just a retread of the BSN. No new knowledge whatsoever.
When my grandmother got her RN (back in the late 1950s), there were "diploma programs". She has many years of experience in the ED, ICU, Tele units, and as a charge nurse in them all. But she was told that she had to go back to school to obtain a higher degree because hospitals would no longer be accepting/hiring diploma program RNs. This switch made ADN degrees the minimum qualifications, forcing many nurses to go back to school. This mirrors what is going on today, by making a BSN the minimum qualifications and no longer accepting ADN nurses. My grandma got over this hump, earned her BSN and kept working at what she loved to do. She eventually got her Masters because it was required to continue being the Director of the various nursing units that she was in.
I am 22 and just got accepted in to graduate school for nursing. I asked my grandmother how she felt about HAVING to go to school for a higher degree when this was all happening to her. She explained it like this "by setting the educational level higher for nurses (from diploma program to ADN and not to a BSN minimum), it has made the roll of a nurse become a true profession. She explained that when she started, nurses were looked down upon by doctors as doing the "dirty work" and the doctors being the only ones who knew what was going on. My grandmother explained that as the nursing qualifications have gotten higher in degree levels, nurses have become better prepared and more competent.
Now this isn't to say that I don't think it's odd what the hospital is doing to this original poster who started the thread, but my only idea as to why they are making this person go back to school to obtain a BSN or leave would be 1 of 2 things... 1. It's not fair to only higher minimum BSN nurses and be "grandfathered in" and 2... I'm sorry, but if a handful of the nurses below you have higher degrees than you, will you obtain the respect as a manager or nurse leader than you should be getting?
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
I completely agree with you that just because it's being done, that doesn't make it right. However, it seems to me that you are again confusing licensure with employment. Even if the entire nursing community were to get together as a group (for the first time ever ...), mandate the BSN as entry to practice and grandfather in all the current diploma- and ADN-prepared RNs (which is, of course, what would happen), that would still have no effect whatsoever on whether employers would want to hire (or keep) non-BSN RNs. They would still be entirely free to decline to hire, or get rid of, their non-BSN RNs.
And, again, I think it's really unrealistic to say that no one could have seen this coming and there was no warning. The rumblings have been going on for, literally, decades. In the early '90s, when I was in a BSN-completion program (of my own free will :)), a big chunk of our cohort were a bunch of the nurse managers from the local hospital (a decent hospital, but nothing special). They were all there because the administration of the hospital had just recently announced that the hospital was going to an BSN-minimum management model, and, by such-and-such date, they could either have a BSN (completed) or they could step down from their nurse manager positions (which many of them had been in, successfully, for many years). No exceptions, no extensions, no ifs, ands or buts. The ADN-prepared NMs were not happy about that (some of them were a really negative presence in the classes), but they all trotted down to the local state uni and signed up for the BSN-completion program because they wanted to keep their jobs.
Lots of nurses have had your experience, of having a long, successful career in nursing administration without a BSN, let alone a graduate degree. Many potential students have posted here about going for an ADN because their grandmother, who was an RN for 100 years andhad been the DON of a big, busy hospital with just a diploma, told them that they didn't need any more than an ADN and it would be silly to do more, and lots of us have responded that those days are over. Yes, it used to be possible to rise to the top of nursing administration in many hospitals with "just" a diplomaor ADN and years of solid clinical experience, but those days are long gone, and they ain't coming back. The people like that who still have their jobs are lucky, and I hope they'll be able to continue their careers to retirement, but that is becoming increasingly rare, and that scenario just isn't going to be possible going forward.
It's not just nursing -- there are probably lots of mid-level and maybe even some upper-level executives in other occupations who only have a high school diploma, and many years of experience in their chosen field, and have had a long and successful career. But times and expectations have changed, and that's not going to be possible going forward. As has been noted in the press repeatedly for decades, the BA/BS degree is the new high school diploma, the minimum credential to get a decent job and life. There have been reports in the press that McDonald's in some areas is requiring a BA/BS degree for potential employees. Again, whether that's right or wrong, or smart or dumb, if employers are requiring a baccalaureate degree to flip burgers, why on earth would anyone think that nurses could get away with having less than a baccalaureate degree?
I have to agree to disagree. I have BSN. It actually has no effect on me. I just think it is wrong. Someone should stand up for them. I guess it's me. Just becasue the press (who I have little to no respect for) say the Bachelors degree is the new high school diploma doesn't mean we have to follow or believe them. If they said the world was ending unless I danced naked down the street I won't dance naked down the street. I don't drink the cool-aid handed to me but I am from that don't trust the establishment. "The Man" will always have an ulterior motive. Again I don't think nursing should get away with anything I just think senority and expereince should count for something. It is embarrassing that we are so ready to throw seasoned nurses aside. Sad really....we value them so little. If they "the big wigs" were that interested they'd ante up some tuition assistance.
All of these anecdotal stories do little to erase the words uttered by The CEO CFO that this is an excellent way to trim the fat off the nursing budget. While nursing wants to "advance the profession" the CEO's want to trim the fat. They have no real interest in improving care unless it's reflected on a press gainey survey. The easy way to toss high paid staff without a severance? Make them quit. As they look at each other and chuckle....disgusting.
I, and other nurses like me (even those with higher degrees), have left administrative positions because we aren't willing to sacrifice our morals and beliefs for the budget.
Specializes in Cath Lab, ICU's, Pediatric Critical Care.
I disagree with having to get a BSN, at least for bedside nursing.
And I'm having some trouble with typing a response because, until I work alongside a BSN, new or experienced, who is 'better', 'more knowledgeable', 'a better nurse' (or whatever phrase you choose)...than someone without a BSN, I'll not agree with the BSN as an entry level for a bedside nurse.
I went to a ADN program, and just retired after 43 years of nursing, almost all critical care. I've been hearing of 'making a BSN entry level' since 1972, while working for the VA system in New York. I feel nurses who do bedside care can be up to date, improve their skills, etc., with certifications and seminars, and working in an environment that stresses learning. I've been fortunate to always work in such an environment.
I went back to school (after 17 years) and was lucky to attend a university that accepted all my non nursing credits, and also let me test out of other subjects. It was for a BS degree, but not in nursing, but I was unable to complete it due to the stresses of working full time and being a single parent.
When I was entering my 50's I toyed with the idea of getting my BSN, but as someone mentioned you have to consider taking out those large loans when you're nearing retirement. And schools will not accept credits that are 8-10 years old or more. I did not want to spend $200-$400 per credit or more to go back to school, esp. with kids going to college.
As someone else mentioned above, if they are seriously considering this, then they need to reduce or eliminate the ADN programs, and figure out a way for making it more affordable.
Why do these discussions always become battles between experienced nurses and BSN prepared nurses. There are those of us that are experienced at the bedside and have a BSN.
Why do these discussions always become battles between experienced nurses and BSN prepared nurses. There are those of us that are experienced at the bedside and have a BSN.
THIS.
BSNs have been around for decades and have just as much experience as the ADNs that have been around for decades; why is that always left out of the discussion like BSN education is shiny and new?
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
Why do these discussions always become battles between experienced nurses and BSN prepared nurses. There are those of us that are experienced at the bedside and have a BSN.
And there are lots of experienced BSN nurses who disagree with what happened to the person who started this thread. Many people here have dismissed the idea that employers are telling people of 30+ years experience to get a BSN or get out, but it seems more and more people are coming here to relate exactly that experience.
I disagree that Community Colleges have anything near the lobbying force or the deep pockets of entities like the IOM, the ANA and related groups that think the same way. When the first Aiken study came out in 2003, community colleges had next to no resources to rebut their assertions and are massively outspent in public relations and media strategy.
As we speak those people who do use their power and influence to get funding for new programs are not the slightest bit interested in lobbying to transition current ADN programs into BSN programs, which seems to be the most logical solution going forward, especially when some of our members here have written informed posts discussing the rather short leap it would take in many cases to accomplish that.
When the AACN was developing it's criteria for creating the DNP degree they appointed a committee who spent two years surveying and studying current MSN programs with an eye toward revamping them into doctoral programs. Why have they not undertaken a similar approach to current ADN programs?
What they are instead lobbying for is more money for post-graduate degree programs, and more Accelerated BSN programs for people with no nursing education at all. The ANA calls itself the voice of nursing. It is anything but that, and their membership numbers are reflecting it.
), mandate the BSN as entry to practice and grandfather in all the current diploma- and ADN-prepared RNs (which is, of course, what would happen), that would still have no effect whatsoever on whether employers would want to hire (or keep) non-BSN RNs. They would still be entirely free to decline to hire, or get rid of, their non-BSN RNs.
elkpark
14,633 Posts
Well, if the difference is having a job vs. not having a job, that's quite a bit more in the paycheck.