BSN as entry into practice; why we decided against it.

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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While hopefully avoiding stoking the ADN - BSN debate unnecessarily, I thought I'd share my experience with my state's consideration of BSN as entry into practice, as well as the BSN-in-10 initiative.

About 3 years ago I sat on a council charged with evaluating and making recommendations on the educational requirements for Nursing. We worked closely with both employers and schools of Nursing to evaluate needs and capabilities and to coordinate the two.

We initially reviewed the evidence, most notably Linda Aiken's work on the relationship between educational level and quality of Nursing care. On the surface her work seems to clearly support the BSN model, however upon closer inspection we could not show that improved Nursing specific outcomes were due to higher proportions of BSN nurses, at least in terms of a BSN being causative rather than just correlative. While her studies did show a relationship between better outcomes and Hospitals with a higher proportion of BSN Nurses, she failed to adequately account for the fact that Hospitals with higher proportions of BSN nurses also have many factors that would be likely to contribute to better outcomes. For instance, predominately BSN hospitals (teaching hospitals) tend to have better staffing ratios, better support systems, better funding, and are more likely to be "early adopters" of practice improvements. Aiken's accounting for the effects of these differences were grossly inadequate. When her data was properly corrected for these differences, there was no clear difference between ADN and BSN prepared Nurses in areas examined.

We then looked at differences in curriculum between ADN and BSN programs and found surprisingly few differences. Pre-requisites varied among both ADN and BSN programs, with the only consistent difference being that BSN programs required a Nutrition class. We had assumed that the Statistics requirement was also a universal difference, but what we found was that this was only different in older ADN programs, newer ADN programs carried the same statistics requirement with some requiring a higher level of statistics than even the top BSN program in the state. In the program itself, the curriculum is closely regulated by both accreditation groups and the State Board, both of which hold the curriculum of both types of program to the same standards, minus the BSN program's additional leadership and community health classes.

Considering the minimal differences between ADN and BSN curriculum, we questioned whether there might be differences related to the 'caliber' of student admitted to each type of program, we were particularly surprised by what we found. Two of the ADN programs in the state required a previous bachelor's degree to even apply, more were considering this. The typical minimum GPA in core prerequisites for competitive entry ADN programs was 3.8, for BSN programs it was 3.6.

The biggest factor was what we would need to do to move to only BSN programs. Our current BSN programs already have a shortage of clinical spots, so expanding our current BSN programs was not an option. The only viable option was to take our ADN programs and simply start calling them BSN programs by adding community health and leadership classes and requiring the additional "general" credits needed to fulfill the credit requirements of a bachelors. To do this, community colleges would have to partner with Universities who would then grant BSN's for a (large) fee. This would essentially mean the only difference between an ADN and BSN would be 8 core credits, about 35 general credits, and about $18,000.

The other concern with limiting RN education opportunities to BSN programs by expanding BSN programs was the demographic makeup of Nursing students. More than half of those currently going into Nursing are "second career" students. These students typically are not in positions where attending a direct BSN program is feasible. In my state, BSN programs are only available in two urban areas. It's much easier for an 18 year old to drop everything and move to one of these two areas than it is for someone who has kids in school, owns a home, has a spouse with an immovable job, etc. As a result we were concerned about the effect such a drastic change in Nursing student demographics might have.

A survey of employers found no glaring preference for BSN prepared Nurses in my state, in fact we were surprised at the number of Hospitals that expressed a preference for ADN new grads as they found their bedside training requirements were less, this was likely due to the limitations in clinical experience in BSN programs. Only one hospital in the state expressed a preference for BSN graduates, although they did not require a BSN, this was the Hospital associated with the state's largest BSN program. They did express that their preference for BSN's was somewhat self-serving; when part of the job market is "BSN-only", it helps maintain demand for a degree that's fairly similar yet typically 400% more expensive than the ADN option. This would seem to shed some light on why "BSN-only" employers are primarily hospitals associated with Universities.

In the end we determined that we could not support the goal of BSN as entry to practice at this time. We did however endorse the concept of BSN-in-10 through ADN to BSN programs. Although we didn't go so far as to advocate BSN-in-10 as a requirement. This was partly due to reviewing North Dakota's failed BSN-in-10 attempt, as well as the demographics involved in the Nursing workforce. The number of experienced Nurses who leave the workforce is a real problem. This attrition often occurs between 5 and 10 years. Adding a requirement that will take additional time as well as cost, in many cases, up to half of their yearly salary would too often serve as the primary factor in a decision to leave Nursing. There are huge advantages to additional schooling after a period of time in the workforce, one could argue advantages that exceed that of direct BSN programs, however it was not felt that the loss of experienced Nurses outweighed those advantages. But when feasible, all ADN Nurses should be actively encouraged to pursue an ADN to BSN.

As a BSN prepared Nurse, I was expecting confirmation that my money was spell spent, and I'm not saying it necessarily wasn't, however many of the assumptions I held may have been overstated or just incorrect. For many, direct BSN programs are worth the expense, for other's it's not. What's most important is that students can make an informed decision.

No actually I don't need to do that at all. If you want to jump in defending others' posts, then maybe you should read all of the posts so you know exactly what you're defending. Don't know what to tell ya.

Just because I agree with the fact that there is and will be a shortage of nursing faculty (because, well...it's true) doesn't mean I have to agree with every post that the initial member who posed the topic has ever made.

Again, it's possible to agree with someone on one point without agreeing with every point they ever make. It's also possible to disagree with someone on one point (or several) without disagreeing with every single thing they say.

Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
Who do you think wipes them when the CNA's are cut?[/quote

An even better question is, why do you wait for the CNA to be cut to wipe them?

I believe she interpreted this answer as personal to her rather than the greater question of "if an RN sees poop should she just go ahead and deal with it herself or wait for the CNA" which I guess is what you were getting at there?

I just left the mangled quoting the way I found it. :-)

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
most people who are going to get a master's degree in nursing are going to be an NP or do something where they are paid MORE than a floor nurse, not less.

*** All or most of the the dozens of RNs I have known who went to NP school took a pay cut to do it. They went for a better schedual, not more pay.

Specializes in Med/surg, Quality & Risk.

You know, it's really ridiculous that just because someone doesn't agree on ONE particular issue (oh...like the ADN/BSN as entry into practice, for example) that every other topic has to be misconstrued, misinterpreted, have information omitted, etc. just to raise an argument even where there isn't one.

Projecting.

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

*** All or most of the the dozens of RNs I have known who went to NP school took a pay cut to do it. They went for a better schedual, not more pay.

An initial pay cut but over five years it more than balances out. NP isn't about the money for most, it's about taking the next step.

Specializes in Med-Surg, Critical Care, Public Health.
I have my BSN. I think it varies across state boards and accreditation requirements but where I live all one needs is college level A&P courses (just 8 hours) and a good ACT score before entry into an ADN program. I personally feel like these schools focus more on building nursing skills while BSN programs focus more on the WHY we use these skills and evidence-based practices. The level of cpritical thinking is different. Both extremely difficult and both produce great nurses. The people in my class all passed NCLEX the first time, but a test has nothing to do with what kind of nurse a person will be. Honestly I would have gotten my ADN first if I would have decided on nursing as a career straight out of high school, but a higher degree is a personal choice. My facility pays just a dollar more per hour for a BSN..that's not much comparing the cost of education. Anyone can go back to school through online programs (my school offers a RN TO MSN PROGRAM no Bachelor's required) and can work while learning. Earning my BSN was expensive. I lived on student loans and a pt on campus job that was more stress than what it was worth. It would have been nice to have a good paying PRN job that actually enhanced my nursing education. There's nothing wrong with either program as entry level. One is not better than the other. They're different paths to the same end. The sky is the limit in this field for anyone starting out. I personally don't feel either superior or inferior to an ADN nurse.
I couldn't have said it better. Too many skilled nurses, and not enough critical thinkers to save lives
I couldn't have said it better. Too many skilled nurses, and not enough critical thinkers to save lives

yes, too many skilled nurses is clearly one of our profession's major problems....

I personally feel like these schools focus more on building nursing skills while BSN programs focus more on the WHY we use these skills and evidence-based practices. The level of critical thinking is different.

I've heard this for years from the BSN crowd, and I've gotta say, after teaching in both ADN and BSN programs and working with new grads from both ADN and BSN programs, I just don't see it. The ADN students I've taught, and the new ADN grads I've worked with, were just as good at critical thinking as the BSN students and new grads I've worked with (and, frankly, IMO, neither were as good at critical thinking or clinical skills as your average diploma grad). I think this whole "BSN programs teach superior critical thinking skills" is just something the pro-BSN crowd dreamed up to help strengthen their case that students should go to school longer and pay more money. I'm sure there are superior BSN programs where this is truly the case (just as there are superior ADN programs out there), but I can't help but believe that it's mostly hot air.

Specializes in L & D; Postpartum.
Most baristas already have a bachelor's degree? We're talking a coffee server, right?
Maybe because their degree is in ancient language syntax or one of many other degrees that offer no employment opportunities.Great topic, Muno.
Specializes in L & D; Postpartum.
I think it's a shame after nurses have had to work so hard to be seen as a valuable member of the healthcare profession instead of "butt wipers" that nurses themselves would say something as ridiculous as, "I don't need a master's degree to wipe butts."That's sad if you think you're a glorified butt wiper. Where do you work that they would even pay an RN to be a butt wiper? They must be hard up.
And where do you work if butt wiping isnt part of the nurses job? Our mother-baby unit is all rns, no aides, so we all wipe butts, every shift. (For the grammar police, i am on an iPad and getting to the extras is a pia, so i dont do it.)
And where do you work if butt wiping isnt part of the nurses job? Our mother-baby unit is all rns no aides, so we all wipe butts, every shift. (For the grammar police, i am on an iPad and getting to the extras is a pia, so i dont do it.)[/quote']

ARE YOU KIDDING?? I went into nursing 25 yrs ago for the POWER!! Monday thru Friday, 9 - 5, glam role, looking like a super model all the while.. Only hob-knobbing with the "beautiful people"... You mean there's sick people and dirty butts involved? I'm outta here!

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