Have we become a nation of slugs, so offended by a simple old-time Christmas song that we want to ban it from the radio? Where does this leave us in real life?
So, with the current controversy about "Baby Its Cold Outside" raging on the radio and social media I got to thinking and thinking and thinking....are we as a country just becoming too PC?
"Baby Its Cold Outside" was originally written in 1944 by Frank Loesser's as a jazz standard. Is it a song about date rape or just a catchy tune? Should it be "banned" from the airwaves? I vote NO! This is just a catchy tune, nothing more, written in a more innocent time in our history. Here is a video that depicts the song first as a man trying to convince a woman to stay a little while longer which has garnered criticism and a second version where its the man that wants to leave and the female is trying to convince him to stay. Do you feel differently about each version? Or again, is it just a catchy tune?
Being PC isn't a new idea. In another life in the 1970's early 1980's, I was a USN broadcaster serving in Japan. We had what was called, "host country sensitivities." For instance, when giving the weather, we were not allowed to say, "there's a nip in the air." Some other issues: we weren't allowed to discuss the nuclear bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And we couldn't call the Emperor by his first name as this was considered disrespectful. I can see how we need to be sensitive when we serve in the military overseas and need to blend in. However, here in the US nowadays we seem to be resorting to not wishing to offend anyone.
And it seems as though others agree with me. "The most recent national survey from Fairleigh Dickinson University's PublicMind finds that 68 percent agree with the statement: "A big problem this country has is being politically correct."
So, how does this relate to nursing and medicine? "After 25 years, the MCAT is being revised, becoming longer (by three hours) and covering a broader range of topics than simply chemistry, physics and biology. One quarter of the new test covers "psychology, sociology and the biological foundations of behavior." More specifically, students will be tested on "social inequality, class consciousness, racial and ethnic identity, institutionalized racism and discrimination, and power, privilege and prestige." Most of us would agree that widening the scope of physician education is important. There are many more social issues nowadays, more poverty, more people that feel disenfranchised. In this venue, it's important to be inclusive. Can we be inclusive without crossing over into not offending anyone?
And, most of us have had to sit through in-services about cultural awareness, even generational awareness. Has this resulted in stilted communication? Must all our communication be so "aware?" Do you think before you speak? Do you consider generational differences when communication with co-workers, patients?
Where do patients fit in? Should patients expect all of their needs to be met? Where do we draw the line between being PC and enabling? When discharging patients from the hospital nowadays, follow up appointments are made, prescriptions electronically sent to pharmacies, perhaps home health arranged and other case management needs that are met. Then, the patient states, "I need a ride to my appointments." When did this become the responsibility of the healthcare system? While we are all striving to reduce readmission rates, when does the responsibility of transportation become the patients' responsibility? Or is it PC to say, "Oh I can get you a cab voucher"? Are we making healthcare too accessible?
As a nation, shouldn't we "man up" and be responsible for our own lives? That means taking care of ourselves, communicating our needs in a clear manner, being honest in our dealings with others and overall being a worthwhile citizen?
Okay, thanks for sharing, Tweety. I have used 'that word' (without the specific item being sucked) with a negative connotation. You taught me something this morning. Now I can do better. I will listen and learn. Thanks. Happy Holidays to you!
Come to think of it, I used it in the profanity thread and I did feel a little hypocritical. Hmm. Sorry I used that negatively. Thanks for the 'sbomb awareness'. That was just right on out there. I appreciate your honesty and education. At least that word has other meanings that aren't sexual, e.g.suck a sucker, popsicle, or straw, a baby sucks on a nipple, and it's positive too, right? Still no excuses...I don't want offend any gay friends! I'm sorry.
I'd prefer to call it plain good old fashioned manners. The 'PC' term sounds like some kind of negative propaganda made up and spread via emails to divide people. Why add 'politically' to it? I just heard some guy (one of GWB's friends) say the word 'politics' actually means, poli=many, tics=blood-sucking parasites. Ironic, but there's that word again. Sorry. Isn't everyone sick of politics??? I am. I do like that people are speaking out for their rights. I do like that song Christmas song too. Oh well...
Is it 'PC' that we all have to bust our butts or be totally broke for practically no health care and the politicians are all taken care of for life with our taxpayer dollars? To me that is a real 'PC' question, not ths cute little flirty Christmas song. Change the channel. Call it sexualizing but 'PC'...let's look at the real 'PC' and call it out? This feels like 'fake news' most likely made by the originator of the same, meant to distract from real issues that aren't being taken care of, e.g. our health care! Let's get the same or even similar heallth care our politicans have for life. That's 'PC' to me. How about you???
Even is someone was charged under this law, it would be a misdemeanor and unlikely to result in jail time.
And there is no "they" banning that song. As far as I can tell, 3 radio stations, one in Cleveland, one in San Francisco and one in Canada pulled the song from their playlists. Decisions made by private businesses not to use a product.
Radio stations make choices all the time about the music and programs they broadcast. Country western doesn't play rap. Is that an example of being too PC? Or are they trying to play what they think listeners want to hear, or sponsors want to be associated with.
My point with the Calif law is that the lawmakers felt the need to make the law. I doubt anyone would be jailed either but why the law in the first place. If a healthcare provider is purposefully using the wrong pronoun that of course that is wrong but there are avenues in place already to handle this, make a complaint to management and handle internally, or make a complaint to the state in which case a state investigation would be done. As a nurse I can easily see how this can run a muck. We all know that patients feel entitled, some flat out lie, others just like to cause problems. I have accidently used a wrong pronoun (with a cisgender person) just because of running around with a thousand things in my brain at once. I have worked with many Filipino nurses who always misuse pronouns (I asked a friend once why and she said she doesn't know why, just a translation issue). So you can see how this could go bad real quick. And need I even mention the BON!
As far as the "they" I didn't mean just the radio stations, I meant the people who complain. Just turn it off if it bothers you.
I don't like the lyrics of a lot of music (rap included) so I simply don't listen, but I also don't try to stop others if that is what they like.
Specializes in ED, Cardiac-step down, tele, med surg.
I think Li Nel might be a troll poster. If they go back and actually read what I wrote, there is not bigotry there. My intention on sharing my personal history was to make a point that not all "white" people come from privaleged backgrounds. I will not share the gruesome experiences my family experienced during the Nazi Holocaust because it is very distrubing.But Li Nel wrote that I am of the majority and that is just not accurate.
Many people walk around with a chip on their shoulder without considering that the other people around them might have had some very rough circumstances they grew up with even if they are "white".
I guess trolling serves a purpose for them but does not foster any kind of respectful and rational debate.
It's really rude though to lecture a Jew on what it means to be Jewish. Unless you had family die in concentration camps (there were non-Jews who died too) please be a little more respectul fo their experience. It will add merrit to your points, if that is what your intention is.
My point with the Calif law is that the lawmakers felt the need to make the law. I doubt anyone would be jailed either but why the law in the first place. If a healthcare provider is purposefully using the wrong pronoun that of course that is wrong but there are avenues in place already to handle this, make a complaint to management and handle internally, or make a complaint to the state in which case a state investigation would be done.
I'm not privy to the thoughts of California lawmakers but my guess is that they want to send a signal about what values they want to promote in their society and also strengthen the protections of a group of people who are often vulnerable and discriminated against.
It's basically what all laws are. They are a signal regarding what society considers acceptable behavior, and what it does not.
In my country we have one law that is a bit strange when you compare it to the equivalent law in other countries. It's the criminal code regarding prostitution. Here it's actually legal to sell your body, the rationale being that it's yours to sell. BUT.. it's illegal to use the services of a prostitute, because another person's body isn't yours to buy and use. So the customer/john commits a crime, the prostitute doesn't. It can be regarded as a rather convoluted solution but it is intended as a signal. It also has the advantage that a prositute who gets battered or sexually assaulted, can report the crime without fear of incriminating her or himself.
We all know that patients feel entitled, some flat out lie, others just like to cause problems.
Yes, some people lie. It's hardly a majority of people or patients who are in the habit of making false accusations regarding being the victims of crimes, but they do exist. However, I don't see how that fact can be used as a rationale to not make more laws if they are deemed necessary. People can lie about offenses that are already criminal, like rape, assault/battery or theft. Surely you don't think doing away with those laws is the proper response to the fact that some people lie?
I have accidently used a wrong pronoun (with a cisgender person) just because of running around with a thousand things in my brain at once. I have worked with many Filipino nurses who always misuse pronouns (I asked a friend once why and she said she doesn't know why, just a translation issue). So you can see how this could go bad real quick. And need I even mention the BON!
I suspect we've all used the wrong pronoun at some point in time. As you say, sometimes we're just tired or unfocused. It happens. I highly doubt that anyone will lose their license over it, and I don't think the respective BoNs will come gunning for nurses with English as a second language, when it's obvious that they mangle their pronouns regardless of the gender identity of the person they're talking about. It will likely be quite apparent to any semi-competent investigator when they're facing an example of maliciously motivated and intentional discrimination as opposed to poor language skills. I think you're warning about scenarios that are extremely unlikely to occur.
As far as the "they" I didn't mean just the radio stations, I meant the people who complain. Just turn it off if it bothers you.
I don't like the lyrics of a lot of music (rap included) so I simply don't listen, but I also don't try to stop others if that is what they like.
Who are you having this argument with? Who in this thread has advocated banning this song? Aren't we all in agreement that we can turn it off or change stations?
The one thing that could not be more clear to me is that being PC is NOT about being kind and respectful of others.
That is my conclusion after having read all the comments on this thread.
Do you care to clarify this comment? It's not super clear who you're addressing or what you're actually saying.
The way I interpret it is that you think that you are a member of the kind and respectful camp, and that some other posters aren't. Is that correct?
Yep. Questionable Analogy Fallacies abound with LilNel.
The statement I had a problem with, Miss Lil Nel, is "Jewish is a RELIGION, not a race." The rest of it, you can do with whatever you like. As I said, I don't care about you, where you come from, what you believe.
Ethnoreligious. Please google it. Being Jewish is one of the outliers that blurs the lines between "race", "ethnicity" , "culture" and "religion". There is no clear delineation as there is....say....for Catholicism. A Questionable Analogy. There is no comparison, yet you attempt to make them equal.
I would ask, since you have quite a bit to say on the subjects of US Foreign Policy and All Things Offensive---that you write an extensive article for All Nurses and educate us.
On one hand you state that "someone" told a commenter that although they are Black, they are not an expert, and you took offense.
Then went on to say that I could not possibly be an expert on Catholicism simply because I am Catholic.
Which is it?
Are you saying that I cannot educate a Buddhist on Catholicism...since perhaps said Buddhist has never been exposed to our beliefs? I don't have to be an expert.
What you are doing is cherry picking the subjects over which you are willing to become outraged. Logical arguments have no place in your statements. Your arguments are based on emotion and very subjective.
Which is the entire point of my post, with that tiny reference to YOU, my dear. The post wasn't about Yemen, blacks, non blacks, race, etc.
The point was....stirring the pot....(ahem) All Nurses....and then standing back and watching the fur fly----is unprofessional and unhelpful to the goal that we as Nurses should be striving towards---standards and practices that better enable us to care for our patients and ourselves.
My comment to you, Nel---had ZERO to do with you being black or pink or Catholic or Jenga worshipper. There was not one IOTA of "hate". You have never, ever seen me hate on you or anyone else---because if you had, it certainly would not have looked like my comment.
I absolutely love when the whole "hater" card is pulled out....another diversionary/distraction emotionally driven pseudo-argument that hold no water. You can accuse me of anything you like, sweetheart....and no one would read my comment to you as me being a "LilNel Hater". I laugh at the pop culture slang though....the catch all when the arguments fall apart.
**sigh** Emotion and reactionary behavior has no place in the conversation when it comes to religion or politics. The subjects are extremely complex and have thousands of years of history attached to them---and because someone watches teeee veeee and did a semester at college on "Multiculturalism" or "*******whateverstudies" does not give them the right to impose their limited view on those who....oh.....LIVE that particular culture/religion/ethnicity.
We can always go into nurture too--how you were raised to view others and your interpretation of "intent". I certainly know that my parents---racist as all get out, and continue to be so very proudly---do not influence me as AN ADULT as much as they did when I was a child. It may do some people around here some good to examine the influences they have in their lives, and whether or not the opinions/views are based on FACTS and REALITY as opposed to what those familial or direct environmental factors contribute.
I have had arguments where it really does come down to two things. What makes that person comfortable is usually what they will cling to---usually taking the form of "you're a hater! you just don't like me because I'm _____ fill in the blank" instead of basing the argument in fact and logic.....
or...."it's impossible to get a man to understand something if his paycheck relies on him not understanding it".
In this case....replace "paycheck" with "bias". People like their biases ---because it's comfortable and secure.
Because I disagreed with your point of view and called you on a very insensitive and non-factual single statement---that I am a "hater" (read: I don't like you.)
Honestly? I don't think about you enough to hate you. So it's a non starter right there.
If, however, you would like to regale me and others on your expert US Foreign Policy in the Middle East, perhaps the White House could use your input on a problem that has lasted....oh.....a century or two?
My point is....those comments have no place here. It's a nursing forum.
Back to the original post, I don't quite understand this part:
Where do patients fit in? Should patients expect all of their needs to be met? Where do we draw the line between being PC and enabling? When discharging patients from the hospital nowadays, follow up appointments are made, prescriptions electronically sent to pharmacies, perhaps home health arranged and other case management needs that are met. Then, the patient states, "I need a ride to my appointments." When did this become the responsibility of the healthcare system? While we are all striving to reduce readmission rates, when does the responsibility of transportation become the patients' responsibility? Or is it PC to say, "Oh I can get you a cab voucher"? Are we making healthcare too accessible?
As a nation, shouldn't we "man up" and be responsible for our own lives?
Is expecting needs (or wants) to be met considered PC? Certainly there are some basic needs are provided by a hospital: clean accommodations, nutrition, clear communication, etc. But in my opinion, once they are discharged, the hospital's obligation ends. Yes, of course, some people have little to no resources, so there may be services arranged for, but I don't know how many nurses have time to do that.
In my state, Medicaid will pay for a taxi to health care appointments.
I think Li Nel might be a troll poster. If they go back and actually read what I wrote, there is not bigotry there. My intention on sharing my personal history was to make a point that not all "white" people come from privaleged backgrounds. I will not share the gruesome experiences my family experienced during the Nazi Holocaust because it is very distrubing.But Li Nel wrote that I am of the majority and that is just not accurate.
Many people walk around with a chip on their shoulder without considering that the other people around them might have had some very rough circumstances they grew up with even if they are "white".
I guess trolling serves a purpose for them but does not foster any kind of respectful and rational debate.
It's really rude though to lecture a Jew on what it means to be Jewish. Unless you had family die in concentration camps (there were non-Jews who died too) please be a little more respectul fo their experience. It will add merrit to your points, if that is what your intention is.
LOL.
I am not a troll, and that should be obvious to you by looking at my posting history.
And to be clear, I never wrote that your post concerning your grandmother was bigoted.
Please reread what I actually wrote.
In fact, I even stated that I wasn't sure, it was YOUR post I was referencing.
Yep. Questionable Analogy Fallacies abound with LilNel.
The statement I had a problem with, Miss Lil Nel, is "Jewish is a RELIGION, not a race." The rest of it, you can do with whatever you like. As I said, I don't care about you, where you come from, what you believe.
Ethnoreligious. Please google it. Being Jewish is one of the outliers that blurs the lines between "race", "ethnicity" , "culture" and "religion". There is no clear delineation as there is....say....for Catholicism. A Questionable Analogy. There is no comparison, yet you attempt to make them equal.
I would ask, since you have quite a bit to say on the subjects of US Foreign Policy and All Things Offensive---that you write an extensive article for All Nurses and educate us.
On one hand you state that "someone" told a commenter that although they are Black, they are not an expert, and you took offense.
Then went on to say that I could not possibly be an expert on Catholicism simply because I am Catholic.
Which is it?
Are you saying that I cannot educate a Buddhist on Catholicism...since perhaps said Buddhist has never been exposed to our beliefs? I don't have to be an expert.
What you are doing is cherry picking the subjects over which you are willing to become outraged. Logical arguments have no place in your statements. Your arguments are based on emotion and very subjective.
Which is the entire point of my post, with that tiny reference to YOU, my dear. The post wasn't about Yemen, blacks, non blacks, race, etc.
The point was....stirring the pot....(ahem) All Nurses....and then standing back and watching the fur fly----is unprofessional and unhelpful to the goal that we as Nurses should be striving towards---standards and practices that better enable us to care for our patients and ourselves.
My comment to you, Nel---had ZERO to do with you being black or pink or Catholic or Jenga worshipper. There was not one IOTA of "hate". You have never, ever seen me hate on you or anyone else---because if you had, it certainly would not have looked like my comment.
I absolutely love when the whole "hater" card is pulled out....another diversionary/distraction emotionally driven pseudo-argument that hold no water. You can accuse me of anything you like, sweetheart....and no one would read my comment to you as me being a "LilNel Hater". I laugh at the pop culture slang though....the catch all when the arguments fall apart.
**sigh** Emotion and reactionary behavior has no place in the conversation when it comes to religion or politics. The subjects are extremely complex and have thousands of years of history attached to them---and because someone watches teeee veeee and did a semester at college on "Multiculturalism" or "*******whateverstudies" does not give them the right to impose their limited view on those who....oh.....LIVE that particular culture/religion/ethnicity.
We can always go into nurture too--how you were raised to view others and your interpretation of "intent". I certainly know that my parents---racist as all get out, and continue to be so very proudly---do not influence me as AN ADULT as much as they did when I was a child. It may do some people around here some good to examine the influences they have in their lives, and whether or not the opinions/views are based on FACTS and REALITY as opposed to what those familial or direct environmental factors contribute.
I have had arguments where it really does come down to two things. What makes that person comfortable is usually what they will cling to---usually taking the form of "you're a hater! you just don't like me because I'm _____ fill in the blank" instead of basing the argument in fact and logic.....
or...."it's impossible to get a man to understand something if his paycheck relies on him not understanding it".
In this case....replace "paycheck" with "bias". People like their biases ---because it's comfortable and secure.
Because I disagreed with your point of view and called you on a very insensitive and non-factual single statement---that I am a "hater" (read: I don't like you.)
Honestly? I don't think about you enough to hate you. So it's a non starter right there.
If, however, you would like to regale me and others on your expert US Foreign Policy in the Middle East, perhaps the White House could use your input on a problem that has lasted....oh.....a century or two?
My point is....those comments have no place here. It's a nursing forum.
I think Li Nel might be a troll poster. If they go back and actually read what I wrote, there is not bigotry there. My intention on sharing my personal history was to make a point that not all "white" people come from privaleged backgrounds. I will not share the gruesome experiences my family experienced during the Nazi Holocaust because it is very distrubing.But Li Nel wrote that I am of the majority and that is just not accurate.
Many people walk around with a chip on their shoulder without considering that the other people around them might have had some very rough circumstances they grew up with even if they are "white".
I guess trolling serves a purpose for them but does not foster any kind of respectful and rational debate.
It's really rude though to lecture a Jew on what it means to be Jewish. Unless you had family die in concentration camps (there were non-Jews who died too) please be a little more respectul fo their experience. It will add merrit to your points, if that is what your intention is.
I never lectured you on being Jewish.
Never.
But being a religious minority, isn't the same as being a racial minority, which isn't the same as being a sexual minority.
It is unfortunate that you, and some others can't seem to discern the difference.
And hence, that is why I support PC efforts.
Quite frankly, it is humerous to me, that you and several others have tried to portray me as a bigot.
If you actually try reading my posts, I have argued in favor of PC behavior.
I have stood up for my maligned minority coworkers.
Yep. Questionable Analogy Fallacies abound with LilNel.
The statement I had a problem with, Miss Lil Nel, is "Jewish is a RELIGION, not a race." The rest of it, you can do with whatever you like. As I said, I don't care about you, where you come from, what you believe.
Ethnoreligious. Please google it. Being Jewish is one of the outliers that blurs the lines between "race", "ethnicity" , "culture" and "religion". There is no clear delineation as there is....say....for Catholicism. A Questionable Analogy. There is no comparison, yet you attempt to make them equal.
I would ask, since you have quite a bit to say on the subjects of US Foreign Policy and All Things Offensive---that you write an extensive article for All Nurses and educate us.
On one hand you state that "someone" told a commenter that although they are Black, they are not an expert, and you took offense.
Then went on to say that I could not possibly be an expert on Catholicism simply because I am Catholic.
Which is it?
Are you saying that I cannot educate a Buddhist on Catholicism...since perhaps said Buddhist has never been exposed to our beliefs? I don't have to be an expert.
What you are doing is cherry picking the subjects over which you are willing to become outraged. Logical arguments have no place in your statements. Your arguments are based on emotion and very subjective.
Which is the entire point of my post, with that tiny reference to YOU, my dear. The post wasn't about Yemen, blacks, non blacks, race, etc.
The point was....stirring the pot....(ahem) All Nurses....and then standing back and watching the fur fly----is unprofessional and unhelpful to the goal that we as Nurses should be striving towards---standards and practices that better enable us to care for our patients and ourselves.
My comment to you, Nel---had ZERO to do with you being black or pink or Catholic or Jenga worshipper. There was not one IOTA of "hate". You have never, ever seen me hate on you or anyone else---because if you had, it certainly would not have looked like my comment.
I absolutely love when the whole "hater" card is pulled out....another diversionary/distraction emotionally driven pseudo-argument that hold no water. You can accuse me of anything you like, sweetheart....and no one would read my comment to you as me being a "LilNel Hater". I laugh at the pop culture slang though....the catch all when the arguments fall apart.
**sigh** Emotion and reactionary behavior has no place in the conversation when it comes to religion or politics. The subjects are extremely complex and have thousands of years of history attached to them---and because someone watches teeee veeee and did a semester at college on "Multiculturalism" or "*******whateverstudies" does not give them the right to impose their limited view on those who....oh.....LIVE that particular culture/religion/ethnicity.
We can always go into nurture too--how you were raised to view others and your interpretation of "intent". I certainly know that my parents---racist as all get out, and continue to be so very proudly---do not influence me as AN ADULT as much as they did when I was a child. It may do some people around here some good to examine the influences they have in their lives, and whether or not the opinions/views are based on FACTS and REALITY as opposed to what those familial or direct environmental factors contribute.
I have had arguments where it really does come down to two things. What makes that person comfortable is usually what they will cling to---usually taking the form of "you're a hater! you just don't like me because I'm _____ fill in the blank" instead of basing the argument in fact and logic.....
or...."it's impossible to get a man to understand something if his paycheck relies on him not understanding it".
In this case....replace "paycheck" with "bias". People like their biases ---because it's comfortable and secure.
Because I disagreed with your point of view and called you on a very insensitive and non-factual single statement---that I am a "hater" (read: I don't like you.)
Honestly? I don't think about you enough to hate you. So it's a non starter right there.
If, however, you would like to regale me and others on your expert US Foreign Policy in the Middle East, perhaps the White House could use your input on a problem that has lasted....oh.....a century or two?
My point is....those comments have no place here. It's a nursing forum.
Wow.
You are making things up!
I never wrote anything about you hating me!
Yikes. Where did you get that idea.
So glad the moderator sees fit to allow this drivel to remain on the thread.
wondern, ASN
694 Posts
Okay, thanks for sharing, Tweety. I have used 'that word' (without the specific item being sucked) with a negative connotation. You taught me something this morning. Now I can do better. I will listen and learn. Thanks. Happy Holidays to you!
Come to think of it, I used it in the profanity thread and I did feel a little hypocritical. Hmm. Sorry I used that negatively. Thanks for the 'sbomb awareness'. That was just right on out there. I appreciate your honesty and education. At least that word has other meanings that aren't sexual, e.g.suck a sucker, popsicle, or straw, a baby sucks on a nipple, and it's positive too, right? Still no excuses...I don't want offend any gay friends! I'm sorry.
I'd prefer to call it plain good old fashioned manners. The 'PC' term sounds like some kind of negative propaganda made up and spread via emails to divide people. Why add 'politically' to it? I just heard some guy (one of GWB's friends) say the word 'politics' actually means, poli=many, tics=blood-sucking parasites. Ironic, but there's that word again. Sorry. Isn't everyone sick of politics??? I am. I do like that people are speaking out for their rights. I do like that song Christmas song too. Oh well...
Is it 'PC' that we all have to bust our butts or be totally broke for practically no health care and the politicians are all taken care of for life with our taxpayer dollars? To me that is a real 'PC' question, not ths cute little flirty Christmas song. Change the channel. Call it sexualizing but 'PC'...let's look at the real 'PC' and call it out? This feels like 'fake news' most likely made by the originator of the same, meant to distract from real issues that aren't being taken care of, e.g. our health care! Let's get the same or even similar heallth care our politicans have for life. That's 'PC' to me. How about you???