We were discussing the Disneryland measles outbreak at work, and I was appalled to find some of my co-workers refuse to vaccinate their kids. They (grudgingly) receive the vaccines they need to remain employed, but doubt their safety/necessity for their kids.
I must say, I am absolutley stunned. How can one be a nurse and deny science?
As a nurse, you should darn well know what the scientific method entails and what phrases such as "evidence based" and "peer reviewed" mean.
I have to say, I have lost most of my respect for the nurses and mistrust their judgement; after all, if they deny science, on what premise are they basing their practices?
That doesn't make the anecdote false, but to extrapolate past the anecdotal is special pleading.
Agreed. The difficulty with this issue is that the nut jobs in chiropractic care truly are a compounding variable. If you did a study to see if chiropractic care could cure or prevent autism, you'll quickly find 100 chiropractors and 100 parents who will eagerly sign up for that study because they truly believe it's possible. We (as believers in science) know that's not even remotely possible, but stuff like that will poison the research waters. This is where research is flawed. That is where chiropractic care gets its reputation for being no better than voodoo. It's frustrating, because those who understand the legitimacy of it, and those who practice it legitimately, enter into conversations like this one to argue that chiropractic care, when in its time and place, has an effective purpose.
(Please forgive my continued hijacking of this thread.)
When you have spinal fractures that make your L5 literally not attached to S1, and your L5 has slipped about 30-40% forward, you can preach placebo effect from studies all you want. Want to talk acupuncture, too? My acupuncturist relieves my muscle spasms to such a degree that I'm able to live without pain medication. But, placebo, and all that.
My response is snide only because I know how my life was before and after these modalities and I'm thankful for it. You can read pieces that talk placebo and chiropractic philosophy all you want, but until you've experienced anything remotely similar to what I've gone through, it's impossible to understand completely. Not all chiropractors believe all health originates from the spine. The ones who do are nuts. I absolutely agree with that. But to discount completely the rehabilitative properties of spinal adjustment is too large of a generalization to fairly assess the effectiveness of chiropractic care.
I think it is great if it works for you, and I know lots of people that swear by chiropractic back/neck care.
There just are not any rigorous RCTs that can back up their claims on spinal manipulation.
When I was 15 I hurt my back doing stupid calisthenics, and my back would spasm and I 'couldn't move' (dared not). So my parents sent me to a chiropractor and the back spasms definitely were lessened in six weeks of having my back 'cracked' or whatever. I don't know about all that other stuff chiro's claim, it does sound, erm, like hogwash
An anecdote isn't 'proof' but it has it's place in discussions about what treatment or medication has helped what. The person hearing the anecdote is not obligated to BELIEVE your every word, whether they think they are or not. Anecdotes are interesting and pertinent, might point toward something that can be 'proven', so why not check into it? No reason to keep anecdotes to yourself or condemn people using them to support their point (I mean this in general), just know they are anecdotes, simple.
The trouble starts when people have vague notions about what 'proof' is. Proof might not be truth, but since when has anyone claimed a corner on the market of truth? If they do, they're as good as providing 'proof' they are wrong. I see this so much in blogs and posts, this generalized vagueness around what constitutes proof. The New Creationists complain evolution is ONLY a theory. So is the quantum mechanics that make their cell phones work. It doesn't make a person look too smart to cherry pick WHICH theory is is ONLY a theory when their life is quite dependent on theories.
I like the idea of having personal exemptions be more difficult than getting the vaccine. Perhaps requiring a class on how they work would be good. Not a short, 1-2 hour thing, but a good one that is thorough. Start with microbiology, then the chemistry, and move on to public health, but make the public health part more personal than, "don't you want to save your neighbors?"
I like the idea of having personal exemptions be more difficult than getting the vaccine. Perhaps requiring a class on how they work would be good. Not a short, 1-2 hour thing, but a good one that is thorough. Start with microbiology, then the chemistry, and move on to public health, but make the public health part more personal than, "don't you want to save your neighbors?"
All states should be like Mississippi with only medical exemptions being allowed.
When I was 15 I hurt my back doing stupid calisthenics, and my back would spasm and I 'couldn't move' (dared not). So my parents sent me to a chiropractor and the back spasms definitely were lessened in six weeks of having my back 'cracked' or whatever. I don't know about all that other stuff chiro's claim, it does sound, erm, like hogwash
An anecdote isn't 'proof' but it has it's place in discussions about what treatment or medication has helped what. The person hearing the anecdote is not obligated to BELIEVE your every word, whether they think they are or not. Anecdotes are interesting and pertinent, might point toward something that can be 'proven', so why not check into it? No reason to keep anecdotes to yourself or condemn people using them to support their point (I mean this in general), just know they are anecdotes, simple.
The trouble starts when people have vague notions about what 'proof' is. Proof might not be truth, but since when has anyone claimed a corner on the market of truth? If they do, they're as good as providing 'proof' they are wrong. I see this so much in blogs and posts, this generalized vagueness around what constitutes proof. The New Creationists complain evolution is ONLY a theory. So is the quantum mechanics that make their cell phones work. It doesn't make a person look too smart to cherry pick WHICH theory is is ONLY a theory when their life is quite dependent on theories.
True, and a Devil's advocate would say your back improved in six weeks simply because six weeks passed, that it would have happened that way with or without the "cracking."
Specializes in Nurse Leader specializing in Labor & Delivery.
It scares me more than the flu that I could ever have a nurse like andi78 take care of me someday
Sent from my iPad using allnurses
As someone who has been out sick for the past three days with the flu, I would have to say with pretty good certainty that not much scares me more than the flu. Holy hell. Only time in my life where I actually wonder if I'm dying.
As someone who has been out sick for the past three days with the flu, I would have to say with pretty good certainty that not much scares me more than the flu. Holy hell. Only time in my life where I actually wonder if I'm dying.
Oh no !!!!!
I felt the same and at the time would have viewed dying as a relief. Swallowing was pure torture, my fever was 104, and my body aches were so excruciating I had to take Lortab elixir in order to sleep a little. When I got pneumonia shortly thereafter, I wished someone would just shoot me and put me out of my misery. And NO, andi78, if I had died of pneumonia, this would be a FLU DEATH as I never would have had pneumonia at that time if not for having the flu. GMAFB.
When people describe flu as a "mild illness" I know they have never had a bad case of the flu. This is why I ALWAYS get the shot now. Even if it doesn't fully protect me, I have a good chance of avoiding the total HELL I experienced with the last bout-in other words, it will not be as severe as it would sans SOME immunity.
The flu to this day is the most terrifying thing I have ever experienced. I was 20 and healthy. I weighed 140 at 5'7". After the flu I was 115. That is NOT a healthy weight for someone my height.
ixchel
4,547 Posts
Agreed. The difficulty with this issue is that the nut jobs in chiropractic care truly are a compounding variable. If you did a study to see if chiropractic care could cure or prevent autism, you'll quickly find 100 chiropractors and 100 parents who will eagerly sign up for that study because they truly believe it's possible. We (as believers in science) know that's not even remotely possible, but stuff like that will poison the research waters. This is where research is flawed. That is where chiropractic care gets its reputation for being no better than voodoo. It's frustrating, because those who understand the legitimacy of it, and those who practice it legitimately, enter into conversations like this one to argue that chiropractic care, when in its time and place, has an effective purpose.
(Please forgive my continued hijacking of this thread.)