We were discussing the Disneryland measles outbreak at work, and I was appalled to find some of my co-workers refuse to vaccinate their kids. They (grudgingly) receive the vaccines they need to remain employed, but doubt their safety/necessity for their kids.
I must say, I am absolutley stunned. How can one be a nurse and deny science?
As a nurse, you should darn well know what the scientific method entails and what phrases such as "evidence based" and "peer reviewed" mean.
I have to say, I have lost most of my respect for the nurses and mistrust their judgement; after all, if they deny science, on what premise are they basing their practices?
I had an antivaxer (chiropractor, who claims to be a "doctor", so is more educated and knows more than me and my little BSN) tell me the other day that pertussis is not a deadly disease, and that there are no documented deaths in the US from whooping cough. He went on to use the argument that diseases we already on their way out in the US when vaccines started, and sanitation, not vaccines are responsible for the drop in cases/deaths of diseases, not the vaccines. His proof? We no longer vaccinate against small pox, and America hasn't had a case in decades. When I pointed out that was because the disease was ERADICATED, he came back with the statement that it's still infecting people in third world countries where sanitation is still substandard. I came back and said, ummm, no, it was ERADICATED from the PLANET 30+ years ago, and now only exists in a lab. He did not respond the that argument again. What made me unfriend him off of my Facebook altogether though, was his attitude that he had authority because he is a doctor (ha!) and homeopathic medicine is proven more effective for childhood diseases than prevention. That and his claim that PERTUSSIS has never killed a child (yep, he said that). Wow, how heartbreaking it must be for mothers of babies who caught pertussis to learn their babies died from nothing.
You know it's odd that you bring this up. I've noticed that a LOT of chiropractors seem to be anti-vaccine just from what others have told me. A lot of my friends with young children have been lectured by their chiropractors against vaccines. I really wonder why that is?
You know it's odd that you bring this up. I've noticed that a LOT of chiropractors seem to be anti-vaccine just from what others have told me. A lot of my friends with young children have been lectured by their chiropractors against vaccines. I really wonder why that is?
The theories behind chiropractor care have been disproven and have no greater effect than placebo groups. The only studies you can find where chiropractor helps is in chiropractor or journals that advocate "natural" medications and treatments.
The theories behind chiropractor care have been disproven and have no greater effect than placebo groups. The only studies you can find where chiropractor helps is in chiropractor or journals that advocate "natural" medications and treatments.
To offer one bit in support of chiropractic care, I have had a multitude of problems with my cervical spine, lumbar spine and I have found some measures of pain relief by having sporadic manipulations PRN. Probably in the last five years about a dozen or so times; this was done after MRIs and Xrays confirmed the specific issue at hand and that there was no 'mainstream' treatment available to provide pain relief other than, well...painkillers. Or steroid injections by pain management specialists. And while I did do those things, they were ineffective and left me looking further.
Films/CDs in hand, I visited a chiropractor who was recommended by medical providers I trusted; to shoot to the end of the story it was the first time I had pain relief without the sedated effects of narcotics or the costly inconvenience (and pain) of injections.
Nothing could be done non-surgically that would be permanent, and the chiropractor didn't claim it would be.....he just did some manipulations and decompressions that gave me a temporary (but blessed!) relief for awhile. And longer of an 'awhile' than I was experiencing up until then. I have discounted the idea of a placebo effect for me, personally, because I honestly didn't hold out any greater hope for chiropracty than anything else I tried, and in fact expected it would NOT work! So definitely not "mind over matter", placebo, or whatever else might be given as the explanation.
So.....I don't knock chiropractic care for what I believe they can do well. I DO speak up if I see anyone acting obviously outside his/her scope of practice and/or knowledge, as with those chiropractors who discuss vaccinations as though they have a more expert knowledge than anyone else does.
I have used chiropractic care for years for neck/back issues related to skiing, hockey & dirt bikes. For me, regular adjustments keep me functioning. That said, my chiro is rabidly anti-vax and we have simply agreed to disagree.
I thnk that there's a balance that needs to be struck. Any medical intervention forced on me by the state puts my hackles up, too.
But there's another side to it, for me. Herd immunity is a reality ... We don't necessarily understand it fully, but we understand enough to take a guess at what might result from breaking it. In my view, if anti-vaccine people choose to add to its destruction, they need to figure out how to pay the inevitable medical bills. And days lost from work, school, etc. Rehab and long term care. It won't be me ... I don't feature paying for other people's bad decisions.
I also have moral/ethical issues with deliberately endangering my neighbors. The limits to my fist lie at the ends of their noses.
If the guiding principle is "first do no harm" I, personally, believe in mandatory vaccination against diseases we know cause significant disability and death.
I also believe we need to keep a close eye on both the industry and the state doing the mandating. Neither entity is any better than it has to be. I don't believe in some big conspiracy - but I don't trust them overmuch, either
I thnk that there's a balance that needs to be struck. Any medical intervention forced on me by the state puts my hackles up, too.
But there's another side to it, for me. Herd immunity is a reality ... We don't necessarily understand it fully, but we understand enough to take a guess at what might result from breaking it. In my view, if anti-vaccine people choose to add to its destruction, they need to figure out how to pay the inevitable medical bills. And days lost from work, school, etc. Rehab and long term care. It won't be me ... I don't feature paying for other people's bad decisions.
I also have moral/ethical issues with deliberately endangering my neighbors. The limits to my fist lie at the ends of their noses.
If the guiding principle is "first do no harm" I, personally, believe in mandatory vaccination against diseases we know cause significant disability and death.
I also believe we need to keep a close eye on both the industry and the state doing the mandating. Neither entity is any better than it has to be. I don't believe in some big conspiracy - but I don't trust them overmuch, either
I don't say this much....if ever....but is there a way for me to "Like" this post a few more times?
With all the vague speculation about the association between increased rates of vaccination and a variety of modern ills. . .
I offer this cute sarcastic article from my graduate level statistics book:
(I changed a couple of dates to make it more relevant, it's apparently a very old article).
"Pickles will kill you! Every pickle you eat brings you closer to death. It is amazing that the modern thinking man has failed to grasp the significance of the term 'in a pickle.'
Pickles are associated with all the major diseases of the body. Eating them breeds war and communism. They can be related to most airline tragedies. Auto accidents are caused by pickles. There exists a positive relationship between crime waves and consumption of this fruit of the cucurbit family.
For example:
1. Nearly all sick people have eaten pickles. The effects are obviously cumulative.
2. 99.9% of all people who die from cancer have eaten pickles.
3. 100.0% of all soldier have eaten pickles.
4. 96.8% of all communist sympathizers have eaten pickles.
5. 99.7% of all the people involved in air and auto accidents ate pickles within 14 days preceding the accident.
6. 93.1% of juvenile delinquents come from homes where pickles are served frequently. Evidence points to the long-term effects of pickle eating.
7. Of the people born in 1901 who later dined on pickles, there has been 100% mortality.
All pickle eaters born between 1920-1935 have wrinkled skin, have lost many of their teeth, have brittle bones and failing eyesight--if the ills of pickle eating have not already caused their deaths.
Even more convincing is the report of the noted team of medical specialists: rats force-fed 20 pounds of pickles per day for 30 days developed bulging abdomens. Their appetites for WHOLESOME FOOD were destroyed.
In spite of all this evidence, pickle growers and packers continue to spread their evil. More than 120,000 acres of fertile U.S. soil are devoted to growing pickles. Our per capita consumption is nearly 4 pounds.
Eat orchid petal soup. Practically no one has as many problems from eating orchid petal soup as they do with eating pickles."
Source: "Evils of Pickle Eating" By Everett D. Edington as reprinted in:
Portney, L.G. & Watkins, M.P. (2009). Foundations of clinical research: Applications to practice. Upper Saddle River: NJ: Pearson Prentice Hall
Anyway. . . .
Know your research methods & stats,
It is unwise to swallow the conclusions or opinions of any agency, be they the CDC or the Vaccine Information Council (or whomever). Dig into the statistics, the methods, then come back and tell me how you've done your research.
Back before I was a nurse, I worked for a physical therapist. He was cautious about chiropractors - but had seen a "sea change" in the chiropractic attitude that ALL diseases emanate from the spine and therefore could be cured with spinal manipulation.
Maybe that's going backwards now . ... seems like the "naturalists" are associated with chiropractors' offices.
One of my family members has thought for years that being her being overweight was caused by her thyroid. She has had multiple tests showing this is not the case over the past 15 years.
But she recently found a naturalist at a chiropractors' office who gives her some kind of oil for her thyroid . .wish I'd looked at the label. She says she is feeling so much better.
Maybe placebo? I dunno - but if your thyroid is functioning properly . . . . . then your being overweight is related to that.
WookieeRN, BSN, MSN, RN
1,050 Posts
You know it's odd that you bring this up. I've noticed that a LOT of chiropractors seem to be anti-vaccine just from what others have told me. A lot of my friends with young children have been lectured by their chiropractors against vaccines. I really wonder why that is?