Anti-vax nurses? Are you serious?

[dinah77]

We were discussing the Disneryland measles outbreak at work, and I was appalled to find some of my co-workers refuse to vaccinate their kids. They (grudgingly) receive the vaccines they need to remain employed, but doubt their safety/necessity for their kids.

I must say, I am absolutley stunned. How can one be a nurse and deny science?

As a nurse, you should darn well know what the scientific method entails and what phrases such as "evidence based" and "peer reviewed" mean.

I have to say, I have lost most of my respect for the nurses and mistrust their judgement; after all, if they deny science, on what premise are they basing their practices?

[Fruit Sucker]

I think the reason that many of the responses have a markedly low pH is that it's a coping mechanism.

Personally, few people frustrate me as much as "anti-vaxxers". Here's why..

* No amount of sound scientific research and epidemiological data shown to a anti-vaxxer and presented ever so politely and respectfully, will make them change their mind. Ever. This is especially disheartening when dealing with educated healthcare professionals.

* I perceive a significant amount of smugness emanating from some anti-vaxxers.

"I am smarter than you because I look at both sides of the equation. Whereas you're either brainwashed by or bought by Big Pharma".

This is annoying when the truth of the matter is that a supporter of immunization vaccines is a supporter of them entirely because they do have the ability to analyse the available research. Anti-vaxxers in my opinion, do not. They're not open-minded higher-level thinkers in this particular instance, they are simply misinformed.

* If anti-vaxxers were simply wrong and being wrong didn't have any consequences I wouldn't spend much, if any, time in these threads. The thing is though, their misguided beliefs and actions come with a very real and scary consequence. The diseases the vaccines protect against, KILL people. People, many of them children, will DIE. I think that people who choose not to vaccinate (including their children) are making a dangerous choice that affects the health of others as well as themselves. The stakes are high. So if I come off as somewhat less than super-polite, the reason is mostly frustration.

I had a similar moment of frustration a while back when a oncology patient's relative tried to convince my patient that homeopathic "medication" is every bit as effective at combating cancer as Antimetabolites and Mitotic inhibitors, just without the side effects Well, duh... Since there's no active substance in the homeopathic "med" you won't have any side effects, but you sure won't have any effect on cancer cells either.

That was slightly off-topic, but the reason for my frustration is the common denominator. People rejecting science in favor of their own subjective, unscientific personal beliefs when this clearly has an impact on the well-being of others.

I can be blunt but I actually make an effort not to be rude. If I've been rude to anyone

I do apologize.

No, I understand your frustration, I really do, and I wasn't talking about people being terse or impatient but rather those who are on here making jokes at others' expense.

I had a similar experience to what you describe when my uncle was diagnosed with cancer. The horses' ***es just came out of the woodwork...people made comments to him that he should be positive about it, because after all negativity is what causes cancer in the first place...some told him that he must not really want to be cured because all you have to do to be cured of cancer is eat graviola fruit...people criticized him for choosing to undergo chemo and "put poison in his body". And the poor man is cripplingly ill with cancer. I agree, a lot of those particular people refused to be budged by any amount of scientific explanation, and I ended up saying to some, look, just take your graviola fruit wacko nonsense out of his face. It was especially disheartening to hear that some people think that "scientists" or "the government" or whomever don't want a cure for cancer and it's all a conspiracy. (I want to work in oncology and have spent a lot of time outside school studying chemo protocols.)

Anyway, I do get your frustration, I just feel that some people on here are seriously lacking in gravitas,, and I appreciate your effort to be diplomatic.

[klone, MSN, RN]

You failed that at least once it looks like. And surprisingly you were struggling with science-so surprising to me with your great understanding of science and vaccines :eye roll:

I'm guessing this is what Fruit Sucker meant with regards to snotty, ****** comments.

[Horseshoe, BSN, RN]

I had a similar experience to what you describe when my uncle was diagnosed with cancer. The horses' ***es just came out of the woodwork...people made comments to him that he should be positive about it, because after all negativity is what causes cancer in the first place...some told him that he must not really want to be cured because all you have to do to be cured of cancer is eat graviola fruit...people criticized him for choosing to undergo chemo and "put poison in his body". And the poor man is cripplingly ill with cancer. I agree, a lot of those particular people refused to be budged by any amount of scientific explanation, and I ended up saying to some, look, just take your graviola fruit wacko nonsense out of his face. It was especially disheartening to hear that some people think that "scientists" or "the government" or whomever don't want a cure for cancer and it's all a conspiracy. (I want to work in oncology and have spent a lot of time outside school studying chemo protocols.)

My DH had a slightly different experience. When he was diagnosed with stage III colon cancer at age 46, MANY people seemed to think it was a good idea to regale him with tales of all of their relatives who died of colon cancer.

I mean, really what the *****!?!

Happily, he is fine 7 years later.

[RNsRWe, ASN, RN]

Perhaps it's the difference between a BSN and Associates degree?

No, I think not. Although I have no hard statistics, only my own anecdotal observations, I'd have to say I see no correlation whatsoever between the college degree earned and ability to comprehend scientific data regarding vaccinations.

If this were the case, we'd see a much greater number of BSNs who are pro-vaccination than ADNs, and many more ADNs that are pro-vaccinations than diploma RNs.....and the fewest number of pro-vaccine folk in the non-degree category. And this just doesn't pan out as truth.

No, unfortunately, although there is a dizzying array of worthwhile, valid, legitimate data available from which MOST people can make informed decisions that land on the favorable side of vaccinations.....there are those who will not recognize the validity and instead favor the side of quackery. Regardless of level of education involved. Which, honestly, IS what is the most surprising in the end, IMHO.

[mariebailey, MSN, RN]

I'm seeing some unbelievable rudeness on this thread on the part of some pro-vaccination posters.

Are we sure it's just the pro-vaxers being rude?

Whatever. It's an endless circle of nothing getting actually talked about (this thread). Except for useful and respectful information being shared by some such as Boston FNP.

Adios, folks! Have fun beating each other over the head with the same arguments over and over and over...

[Holistic12, BSN]

I don't get my news from natural news, nor do I go there for research. I'm not doing the research for you. I did my own. If you care to look objectively from all angles, I have posted links. This one......Vaccines ProCon.org. I have posted it several times. If any of you care to visit it, you might see research and data that supports both sides of the argument. There are footnotes throughout that you can click on to go and "see" the research. I have read cochrane studies on the issue. Scientific journal sites cost money in order to view some studies. If you care to enlighten yourself, you have to be willing to click on the links I provided. You all continue to bash and gloss over any data I provide. I'm done.

I am under the impression that many of you have no clue about health. You have no clue about the importance of nutrition and building a healthy immune system (which is God given and perfectly capable of fighting off disease). You have no clue that about 80% of the immune system is within the gut, or that fermented foods, with all their good bacteria, can heal people and prevent disease. I do not fear disease because I do my best to prevent it by not eating processed junk food and supporting my immune system by incorporating healing foods. Someday, some of you might face a health issue and realize medicine is not the only answer because medicine covers up symptoms but never gets to the root cause. I don't need to put my faith in a vaccine. People survived for years before vaccines, and besides that, the diseases we vaccinate against were already in decline prior to them being given. You want the research...don't be lazy, it's out there....go find and read it.

Have any of you read what the Cardiologist in Arizona had to say about his kids and the measles vaccine? He is not the only medical professional out there that feels that way.

[klone, MSN, RN]

Andi, if you could answer the question raised about the contradiction between you being an RN in a med/surg unit, and your previous posts which indicate you are just starting an ADN program, that would be great.

[Red Kryptonite]

So, first let's take a moment to clarify your claim of being an RN. Just because you change your username does not cancel out your previous posts. Just in 2012 you were struggling to pass the TEAS test in order to enter LPN school. You failed that at least once it looks like. And surprisingly you were struggling with science-so surprising to me with your great understanding of science and vaccines :eye roll:

Then just this past November you were eagerly awaiting to see if you were accepted to nursing school. I think an ASN program? So it's pretty miraculous that just a mere 3 months later you are an RN working on a meg-surg unit diligently providing nursing care from 3 feet away!

Oh and around this point you were looking to enter a holistic path because darn-regular nursing, you know the kind that involves evidence and science, just isn't right for you!!

Now continue to spew your "facts" about vaccines. How can we trust someone's facts who can't even tell us the truth about who he/she is?

Youch.

[Fruit Sucker]

I am under the impression that many of you have no clue about health. You have no clue about the importance of nutrition and building a healthy immune system (which is God given and perfectly capable of fighting off disease).

Why would you say something like that in a room full of nurses? People who have college degrees in health sciences? How about instead of saying that people have no clue (which is very inflammatory), post some specific rebuttals to points that have been made? You can't just post a website and say "all my counter-arguments can be found in this material." That isn't how argumentation works (at the university level, anyway).

about 80% of the immune system is within the gut,

This does not jibe with what most of us learned in school in basic A&P (which is that most of the cells that make up our immune system are located in our lymph nodes and bone marrow) and I am curious as to where this information comes from.

medicine covers up symptoms but never gets to the root cause.

One example that proves this statement false (and that has been mentioned here) is chemotherapy, which specifically inhibits certain kinds of cell growth i.e. the problem.

I think you are missing the entire point of participating in an argument. Someone makes a point, you make a counter-point. You can't just say that your argument is correct and the information is "out there". You accuse others of being lazy but this is not how argumentation is done.

[Holistic12, BSN]

You all also get that some people make health decisions based on religion or philosophical reasons as well right? No amount of "scientific" data will change that. Also, science is always evolving. It is not concrete. What one scientist claims as safe today, may not be safe tomorrow. What one study shows to be bad, could later be good. Take butter for example, for years the recommendations were that butter is bad, avoid it, it raises cholesterol. Now, those statements are retracted. 30 or so years later. The science was found to be incorrect. Butter is healthier than margarine. The way I live my life is natural. Maybe you think it's weird and quacky. Whatever. I really don't care. I know that environment and what I put on and in my body affects my genes and that those genes can be turned on or off. I know that for thousands of years people survived just fine without all the mess of drugs, preservatives, hormones, GMOs etc. in everything. I'm not willing to add to the toxic load. Our bodies can only handle so much before disease sets in. I do everything in my power to help my body because it's the only one I'll ever have. If you all think it's quacky, that's your opinion. I'm just saying, maybe science should not be your God. Yes, science can explain things, but as I said, it's always evolving and changing. You can't always claim something using science. Sometimes you also have to use your own mind, experiences, and perspective in order to decide where you stand on an issue.

[Fruit Sucker]

My DH had a slightly different experience. When he was diagnosed with stage III colon cancer at age 46, MANY people seemed to think it was a good idea to regale him with tales of all of their relatives who died of colon cancer.

I mean, really what the *****!?!

Happily, he is fine 7 years later.

Oh why?? That is some unbelievable ***hattery. My uncle was stage IV colon cancer and it was really bleak for a while, but I kept my fears to myself. He made it through the multiple surgeries, chemo, radiation, horrendous pancytopenia and is in remission...only time will tell. He looks twenty years older than he did before he went through everything.

[Horseshoe, BSN, RN]

People survived for years before vaccines,

I know that for thousands of years people survived just fine without all the mess of drugs, preservatives, hormones, GMOs etc. in everything.

You have conveniently left out the fact that before the advent of vaccines and modern medicine, millions upon millions of people DIDN'T survive "just fine." That's just pure nonsense. Infectious disease was the number one cause of death. Families ROUTINELY lost children to disease, if they even survived the birth. Entire populations would be decimated when an infectious disease made an appearance.

You have not addressed the issue about whether or not you have been honest with your credentials. There seems to be a conflict between what you have said on this thread and what you have said on other threads. If you have been disingenuous, why would anyone take your assertions, none of which have been supported by data, seriously?

besides that, the diseases we vaccinate against were already in decline prior to them being given.

When you make an assertion like that, you need to back it up with data, not instruct the reader to go do research to see if it is true. That's on YOU.