We were discussing the Disneryland measles outbreak at work, and I was appalled to find some of my co-workers refuse to vaccinate their kids. They (grudgingly) receive the vaccines they need to remain employed, but doubt their safety/necessity for their kids.
I must say, I am absolutley stunned. How can one be a nurse and deny science?
As a nurse, you should darn well know what the scientific method entails and what phrases such as "evidence based" and "peer reviewed" mean.
I have to say, I have lost most of my respect for the nurses and mistrust their judgement; after all, if they deny science, on what premise are they basing their practices?
Specializes in Pediatrics, High-Risk L&D, Antepartum, L.
This conversation isn't even a reasonable one because it is clear you either believe in vaccines for all or you went to a crappy nursing school and got a crap education. So it's insult after insult by those who don't believe in freedoms. That's fine. It's impressive how the insults are allowed on this thread.
I'll take my phenomenal education, open mind and vaccinated kids off the topic.
For those discussing the issue there is a very simple epidemiological formula for estimating the vaccination rate required to prevent an epidemic spread in a population. It's called the critical immunization threshold.
The rate must be higher than 1-(1/R0). R0 is the basic reproduction number, or the number of individuals likely to contract the disease from a single infected person if there was no immunity.
If the critical immunization threshold is met, a wild disease introduced in the population will ultimately die out.
For example, measles has an R0 of 8-12 maybe higher. This means that immunization must be greater than 88% (on the low end). Right now in CA it has dropped to 88% and measles is spreading.
I have taken statistics. ... Levels are still low...
What do you think would happen without invasive, freedom compromising, protective public health measures were not taken? How many more states and more people would be infected? Why are those measures OK but preventative measures like mandatory vaccination are not OK?
The antivaxxers are pushing as hard as they can to make it so more people don't vaccinate. What happens as they continue to achieve their goals?
We don't have herd immunity for several diseases anymore and we are moving farther and farther, to the point where an outbreak of Measles in Colorado would spread faster than Influenza.
Since you represent yourself as educated on the subject, why don't you explain what you think is a "low level," then explain how you came to that judgement?
I do believe that nobody owes anyone anything. I think each individual family can be selfish...it is their family first and I'm okay with that. I have no hidden the fact that I don't believe anyone had an obligation to another.
Can you imagine how your society would be like if everyone felt the way you do?
I very much doubt that you'd want to live in that world any more than I do.
When no one has any obligations to anyone else, it doesn't only encompass the things that you are comfortable doing without. You don't get to pick and choose.
Other people might have completely different ideas of what liberties they'll take.
I'm certain that some of their actions would impact your life negatively, and that's putting it mildly.
A society where no one feels obligated to show anyone any consideration, is the collapse of civilization.
Can you imagine how your society would be like if everyone felt the way you do?
I very much doubt that you'd want to live in that world any more than I do.
When no one has any obligations to anyone else, it doesn't only encompass the things that you are comfortable doing without. You don't get to pick and choose.
Other people might have completely different ideas of what liberties they'll take.
I'm certain that some of their actions would impact your life negatively, and that's putting it mildly.
A society where no one feels obligated to show anyone any consideration, is the collapse of civilization.
I was having a hard time articulating this very point. Thank you for beautifully stating what I was thinking. :)
Specializes in Med nurse in med-surg., float, HH, and PDN.
Can you imagine how your society would be like if everyone felt the way you do?
I very much doubt that you'd want to live in that world any more than I do.
When no one has any obligations to anyone else, it doesn't only encompass the things that you are comfortable doing without. You don't get to pick and choose.
Other people might have completely different ideas of what liberties they'll take.
I'm certain that some of their actions would impact your life negatively, and that's putting it mildly.
A society where no one feels obligated to show anyone any consideration, is the collapse of civilization.
When I first read the post which you quoted above this ^ reply, it felt like a loud, giant '***** You!' I don't think anyone was saying to throw her kids/family under the bus!
Believe it or not, your opinion of me as a nurse and/or person means very little. I know who I am and I know what kind of of nurse I will be. I think about things differently than most people. I always have and probably always will. This is not the only debate where I am the voice of dissent. I figured out a long time ago that I need to be true to myself and stick to what I believe is right.
This school was the right choice for me whether you all like it or not. Again, not everyone's life circumstances are the same. Not everyone is an 18 year old kid fresh out of high school with no responsibility and nothing but time. I needed to be through school and working yesterday. To my knowledge, every place that hires ADNs in this valley hires ITT grads. I've also already identified the BSN program I will most likely attend that certainly will accept my degree (and is regionally and CCNE accredited, for those of you worried). Thanks for your concern about my future.
I'm honestly surprised and a bit disappointed that this conversation has come to this. Since any usefulness this conversation may have had is clearly gone, I'm done here. Good luck to you all.
This isn't a matter of you choosing to go down the unbeaten path, or thinking outside the box, or thinking for yourself, or standing up for something you believe in despite it not being the most popular decision.
It is a matter of life and death, and various other less severe, but still life-altering, consequences for MANY children, their parents, and all the other immunocompromised people that you SHARE your community with.
Because of the choices made by those who decide not to vaccinate, people WILL die, their newborn babies WILL die, with each and every one of these deaths being unnecessary and completely preventable. These deaths should not be "a part of life" and your flippant attitude towards the lives of other people, in my opinion, is what has made a lot of posters so angry. Your children and your beliefs are not so important that you should be allowed the ability to endanger the lives of those around you.
While you may think you are protecting your children, every bit of valid scientific evidence points to the fact that you are not. Your education came into question because of your inability to identify research that can be taken seriously from that which is considered to be garbage by the scientific and medical communities.
This thread makes me think of the saying, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
IrishIzCPNP, MSN, RN, APRN, NP
1,344 Posts
This conversation isn't even a reasonable one because it is clear you either believe in vaccines for all or you went to a crappy nursing school and got a crap education. So it's insult after insult by those who don't believe in freedoms. That's fine. It's impressive how the insults are allowed on this thread.
I'll take my phenomenal education, open mind and vaccinated kids off the topic.