We were discussing the Disneryland measles outbreak at work, and I was appalled to find some of my co-workers refuse to vaccinate their kids. They (grudgingly) receive the vaccines they need to remain employed, but doubt their safety/necessity for their kids.
I must say, I am absolutley stunned. How can one be a nurse and deny science?
As a nurse, you should darn well know what the scientific method entails and what phrases such as "evidence based" and "peer reviewed" mean.
I have to say, I have lost most of my respect for the nurses and mistrust their judgement; after all, if they deny science, on what premise are they basing their practices?
Specializes in Nurse Leader specializing in Labor & Delivery.
Nice snark... haven't seen you respond to the evidence showing that the "too many vaccines too fast" position you support is nonsense.
Dude, I'm sorry - I took a break from this thread until this morning. I'm sorry if I've missed a post in this 32-page thread!
But seriously, I have been nothing but polite and courteous in this thread, and you respond in this manner...can you really blame me for taking a break? It really doesn't matter WHAT I post. I'm not changing anyone's mind.
aubrienora is a student who is so confident in her beliefs, that she won't listen to anything you have to say... but she does have a pathological need to come and convince us she is right... because deep down her doubts gnaw at her. That is why she has to show up here and get us to believe in her conspiracy theories. She needs that validation because she cannot admit a mistake. She is far to emotionally invested in her decision to the point where she abdicates responsibility as a member of society and believes that "what will happen will happen" just not because of any choice she makes. Don't waste your time on closed minded people like that.
What is frightening is that someone like that is trying to become a RN.
A quick look at her posting history shows that she attends ITT Technical Institute, an unaccredited for-profit program of poor repute. Her only posts on this forum besides anti-vaxxer posts were to ask how much money she would make. I wish I could say I was shocked.
There are people who believe they are justified in driving 90mph in a school zone too. You won't convince them otherwise. Luckily, the police will cite them. Society may decide at some point that people don't have the right to endanger children and society based on misinformation about vaccines. Some states already believe that.
Oh my. That does explain a lot. Will she even be able to sit for boards?
When I was growing up we had neighbors that did not vaccinate for religious reasons. Their 8 year old daughter stepped on something while playing outside barefoot. She contracted tetorifice and died a terrible death. Is that something you're willing to risk for your child? Or is that just part of life? This child's death was a tragedy that was virtually 100% preventable.
On a another note, a friend who is a family law attorney just represented a father who sued for full custody of his children because his ex-wife refuses to immunize them, and he feels it is endangering their health. The judge agreed and was willing to grant him full custody when the mother decided to immunize them after all. I think that's somewhat drastic, but it's an example of a potential consequence of not immunizing. One last thing-my practice just decided to stop seeing patients who are not immunized, and have no contraindications to immunization. We deal with a large number of patients with immune deficiencies and feel the risk is too great. I am 100% in favor and have been pushing for this for quite some time. People can make the choice not to immunize, but be fully prepared to deal with the consequences.
aubrienora is a student who is so confident in her beliefs, that she won't listen to anything you have to say... but she does have a pathological need to come and convince us she is right... because deep down her doubts gnaw at her. That is why she has to show up here and get us to believe in her conspiracy theories. She needs that validation because she cannot admit a mistake. She is far to emotionally invested in her decision to the point where she abdicates responsibility as a member of society and believes that "what will happen will happen" just not because of any choice she makes. Don't waste your time on closed minded people like that.
What is frightening is that someone like that is trying to become a RN.
A quick look at her posting history shows that she attends ITT Technical Institute, an unaccredited for-profit program of poor repute. Her only posts on this forum besides anti-vaxxer posts were to ask how much money she would make. I wish I could say I was shocked.
There are people who believe they are justified in driving 90mph in a school zone too. You won't convince them otherwise. Luckily, the police will cite them. Society may decide at some point that people don't have the right to endanger children and society based on misinformation about vaccines. Some states already believe that.
Wow. What is frightening is that an RN would resort to personal attacks in any debate. Yes I do attend ITT. It is for profit, but it IS also accredited. Sometimes life throws things (like cheating husbands, divorce, and single parenthood) at you that make things a little more difficult. Not everyone has the luxury of waiting around to get into a traditional program. Yes I will be able to take the NCLEX, and yes, I will pass. This school certainly has its challenges, but the program itself is not bad. As with anything in life, it is what you make it. I apply myself and do very well.
Yes, I want to know how much money I can expect to earn. The hope/plan is that my boyfriend (a wonderful, wonderful, man... nothing like the ex) will stay at home with the kids after I graduate. This would be the best arrangement for our family, but would obviously require me to earn enough to support us. I didn't realize that attempting to plan for the future was such a sin.
Your attacks on my character speak volumes about yours.
Specializes in Pediatrics, High-Risk L&D, Antepartum, L.
It's a shame that there needs to be a law to force parents to stop neglecting their children's health care and do the best thing for their children. Obviously we do as we have seen from this discussion. Hopefully this bill will pass and other states will follow suit.
And you are willing to accept any vaccine the government wants you to have? You are comfortable giving up your ability to make a choice?
Whether I believe vaccines are the best choice or not doesn't change the fact that I believe we have freedom of choice and giving the government that much power and control is frightening.
The number of unvaccinated just isn't that high. The risks are still minimal...until we freak out because of the media.
I say this as somebody who had vaccinated children...but values freedoms more than anything.
I'm more bothered by those smoking in public or coming out smelling like smoke than those who don't vaccinate. The smokers are a bigger risk to my health.
I don't understand how you've managed to convince yourself of this. If you choose to not have your children vaccinated and they are infected with a vaccine-preventable disease and go on and infect a child who's been unable to get the vaccine themselves due to age or immune status, how on earth are you not responsible?
I didn't create these diseases. Choosing not to vaccinate my children does not CAUSE naturally occurring diseases. Obviously it doesn't help prevent it, but it doesn't cause it either.
Well, disease exists a whole lot more when people won't protect themselves and others with available vaccines.
What kind of nurse do you plan on becoming? Will you advise your patients that smoking is detrimental to their health and that it increases the risk for many diseases/conditions? Or will you just assume that disease will happen regardless.
How about a healthy diet and exercise? Again, these are things that are beneficial to our health. Should we tell our patients this or should we shrug our collective shoulders and say "disease exists"?
I don't know what kind of nurse I will be. I will certainly do my best to advise my patients on healthy lifestyle. Eating well and not smoking cannot be compared to injecting oneself with potentially harmful substances...
If you actually take the time and review/compare the risks of childhood immunization vaccines and the risks of the diseases they protect a child from, you'll see that the choice you've made is actually the one that puts your children at greater risk. You are risking their wellness. I don't don't say this with any malicious intent, I wish you'd see the (scientific) light and change your mind on this issue. Your children deserve to be protected just as every single child does.
I did take the time. Five years ago. I can't imagine things have changed much. For MY children it makes more sense not to vaccinate at this time. I don't suggest that this is the right choice for everyone, but for my family I believe it is.
You say that you've reviewed the available evidence on this issue and yet you've somehow managed to conclude that immunization vaccines aren't in your children's best interest. This is extremely hard to understand. Since you seem eager that everyone consider both sides of the issue, are you willing to post the actual research/data/references/sources in this thread, that has convinced you that immunization vaccines carry a greater risk than the diseases they protect against?
I wish I could, but that was two laptops ago and 3 or 4 homes ago. I no longer have the references saved and all the books are in storage. I do remember specifically appreciating the book by Dr. Sears. The Vaccine Book, I think. He gave a lot of facts and statistics and used his opinion (pro-vaccine, BTW) sparingly.
Yes I do attend ITT. It is for profit, but it IS also accredited.
No. It has no nursing accreditation (ACEN), nor regional academic accreditation. Sure it has state approval to operate or it wouldn't exist... but that is not accreditation.
Unless you mean ACICS, which no organization acknowledges except other for-profit schools because the board of directors of ACICS is composed of the controlling interests in the for-profit schools ACICS reviews. No conflict of interest there...
You said in another thread that you were aware that ITT had a bad reputation. It is odd to see you in this thread doing your absolute best to tarnish ITT's reputation by spewing anti-science conspiracy theories. I wonder what your school would think?
Five years ago.
...
I do remember specifically appreciating the book by Dr. Sears. (pro-vaccine, BTW)
I am baffled by your refusal to examine the basis of 5 year old convictions that you reached when you had no healthcare experience or education.
Dr. Sears is reviled by his fellow physicians (many of whom want to kick him out of his professional organization if not medicine entirely). He is NOT pro-vaccine. He says he is pro, but he makes appearances with Jenny McCarthy and many other anti-vaxxer figureheads. Lastly, he quite simply made up his vaccine schedule in his book out of thin air.
I am very interested to know if aubrienora is herself vaccinated, and if not, how she expects to work in a hospital or healthcare setting as an unvaccinated nurse.
However, it brings up the conundrum: if she can be vaccinated, why is it so much different for her children to be vaccinated?
Personally, I think people who do not vaccinate their children are being woefully irresponsibly, and I wouldn't want my kids around theirs whatsoever.
No. It has no nursing accreditation (ACEN), nor regional academic accreditation. Sure it has state approval to operate or it wouldn't exist... but that is not accreditation.
Unless you mean ACICS, which no organization acknowledges except other for-profit schools because the board of directors of ACICS is composed of the controlling interests in the for-profit schools ACICS reviews. No conflict of interest there...
What's your point? That IS an accreditation... even if it's not one you particularly like. It's still approved by the BON. The classes are still taught by RNs. I still have to learn the material and pass the NCLEX. I will still have over 600 clinical hours. I can still continue on and get my BSN and go wherever else I want to go from there. Like I said, it is what you make of it, just like everything else in life. The BON obviously has no problems with the program, so your opinion of it means very little to me.
You said in another thread that you were aware that ITT had a bad reputation.
Nice try. What I said was that I was aware there was a stigma associated with ITT (in reference to the fact that it is a for profit school. One hospital system in the area is reluctant to hire new ITT grads, supposedly because they are a non-profit and have an issue with the school's for-profit status, but more likely because they are a Magnet hospital and this is an ADN program). To my knowledge, this program does not have a bad reputation and I've encountered zero negativity at clinical sites.
It is odd to see you in this thread doing your absolute best to tarnish ITT's reputation by spewing anti-science conspiracy theories. I wonder what your school would think?
Perhaps you have me confused with someone else? I don't believe I ever "spewed" anything anti-science or conspiracy theory...
I am baffled by your refusal to examine the basis of 5 year old convictions that you reached when you had no healthcare experience or education.
Dr. Sears is reviled by his fellow physicians (many of whom want to kick him out of his professional organization if not medicine entirely). He is NOT pro-vaccine. He says he is pro, but he makes appearances with Jenny McCarthy and many other anti-vaxxer figureheads. Lastly, he quite simply made up his vaccine schedule in his book out of thin air.
I had no formal healthcare education, but I did still have the ability to read and think logically... and for your information, I re-evaluate all of my beliefs and decisions as they are challenged. Just because I am comfortable with my decision does not mean I never re-think it.
I don't know who Dr. Sears dares to be seen with, nor do I care. He took a pro-vaccine position IN THE BOOK, which was loaded with facts and statistics about the diseases, their prevalence, the vaccines for them, the side effects associated with the diseases, etc. I doubt he pulled his vaccine schedule out of thin air, but in either case I didn't use it so I'm not entirely sure what point you are attempting to make.
I am very interested to know if aubrienora is herself vaccinated, and if not, how she expects to work in a hospital or healthcare setting as an unvaccinated nurse.
However, it brings up the conundrum: if she can be vaccinated, why is it so much different for her children to be vaccinated?
Personally, I think people who do not vaccinate their children are being woefully irresponsibly, and I wouldn't want my kids around theirs whatsoever.
Feel free to go back a few pages and satisfy your curiosity.
klone, MSN, RN
14,857 Posts
Dude, I'm sorry - I took a break from this thread until this morning. I'm sorry if I've missed a post in this 32-page thread!
But seriously, I have been nothing but polite and courteous in this thread, and you respond in this manner...can you really blame me for taking a break? It really doesn't matter WHAT I post. I'm not changing anyone's mind.