We were discussing the Disneryland measles outbreak at work, and I was appalled to find some of my co-workers refuse to vaccinate their kids. They (grudgingly) receive the vaccines they need to remain employed, but doubt their safety/necessity for their kids.
I must say, I am absolutley stunned. How can one be a nurse and deny science?
As a nurse, you should darn well know what the scientific method entails and what phrases such as "evidence based" and "peer reviewed" mean.
I have to say, I have lost most of my respect for the nurses and mistrust their judgement; after all, if they deny science, on what premise are they basing their practices?
I don't think it matters what courses one took in school in this case. I suspect there is an emotional element, and that element is fear.
Fear can make people deny science. Being human, we don't always fear what we need to rationally fear most.
Good point, I think that is the core issue. Fear is frequently irrational, and when it comes to poking needles into your baby's thigh every three months, three and four vacs at a time, it's pretty horrifying, even to me!
I was sitting with my son and DIL looking at the vaccination schedule for their six week old daughter (six months old now) and I was genuinely shocked at the sheer number of vaccinations. I went and grabbed my son's vacc schedule and kids today are getting a lot more (like, I know, this is obvious).
My son and DIL are pro-vac but still we sort of reeled around at ALL those things being shoved into a bitty baby's body. We hovered over her for that first 24 hrs afterward (she was FINE).
So -- irrational fear on our part? Well, yes, but . . . I can understand the reluctance. At the same time, this is the reality. If any whiff of conspiracy theory about Big Pharma enters the picture my ears turn off. Please, people.
I don't think 'shouting down' or condemning anti-vaxxers is going to help them, it will just scare them more. They have REASONS (albeit uninformed, uneducated and irrationally fearful ones) that we still have to 'respect' and work with, for the sake of their children not to mention ours.
I know that this is a bash anti-vaccine thread, and I hope I don't get thrashed here. I'm personally not firmly in the anti-vaccine camp myself, although I do question the wisdom of the current vaccine schedule pushed by the American medical system. I think there's evidence that an onslaught of too many vaccines at once can negatively affect the immune system, and I chose to introduce vaccines to my children on a different schedule. And, I strongly believe it's wise to be skeptical of the medical system in the United States, where big business gets government to push its products. I do distrust big pharmaceutical interests and other corporate interests, and I distrust the government.
But, above all, I am a civil libertarian and strongly believe that this is a central ideal of these United States of America. Individual liberties have traditionally trumped 'the common good' in this great nation. Why, vaccination of children is optional in the United Kingdom, a nation with a much more comprehensive medical system and less emphasis on individual rights.
I think a lot of the anti-vaccination crowd are also folks who generally distrust the government, and corporate medicine. Having crowds of people with virtual torches, ready to force them to acquiesce, only increases their paranoia.
This hysteria over the measles is overblown, in my opinion. I actually remember having the measles when I was 4 years old. It's not a death sentence by any means. Losing total respect for people with other healthcare philosophies? Well, that goes against my ethics as a nurse that preaches tolerance.
Yes, the Polio vaccine has saved millions from getting that crippling disease. Vaccines have done a lot for the public health. But, I still believe in individual rights and the rights of parents to make healthcare choices for their children. That means that they also should have the right to bottle feed, feed them junk food, and not have bed times for them, all things I disapprove of.
I had to have high school chemistry for my ASN program but not college level. I'll have to take it when I go for my BSN.
I used to think the arguments re the difference between ADN and BSN were founded only on the research/leadership classes. I really had no idea that the programs didn't have the same science requirements.
And while I don't remember all of my chem all those years ago, someone could really school me right now, I'd still had to be able to pass college level org and non org chem. I have seen some ASN grads that tarnish the degree (and I'm sure it works for the BSN's as well) but that really would explain it for the few I have wondered about.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
Measles wasn't a death sentence for you, but it was for scores of other American children.
We have the vaccination schedule for good reasons.
I agree those parents have a right to put their children in danger or harms way. Do they have a right to put my infant in harms way also by taking their little petri dishes to public schools, playgrounds, and amusement parks?
My dog must be properly vaccinated to go to the groomer or the local dog park, but kids?
Specializes in Nurse Leader specializing in Labor & Delivery.
I am one who greatly dislikes the American vaccine schedule as it currently is. I think it's too much, too soon, and all at once. In Europe, the vaccine schedule is quite a bit different. We vaccinate our kids on a delayed, selective schedule.
I wonder if they really look at their logic. They hate the idea of a risk of autism. But there is also a risk of death from the actual disease. Makes me want to ask them: Do you hate autistic kids so much you'd rather have your child die than be like them?
I am even more dumbfounded when parents of autistic kids who have not been vaccinated come to clinic and tell me they are against vaccines because they cause autism.
We know there is no possible way they can blame their child's autism on vaccines because they've never been vaccinated. Vaccinating a child who is already autistic is not going to make them more autistic.
The doctor who attempted to link autism and vaccines was later discredited.
But, above all, I am a civil libertarian and strongly believe that this is a central ideal of these United States of America. Individual liberties have traditionally trumped 'the common good' in this great nation. Why, vaccination of children is optional in the United Kingdom, a nation with a much more comprehensive medical system and less emphasis on individual rights.
Eh? Not always. The most obvious example would be the ol' maliciously yelling "fire" in a crowded space -- the safety of the group surpasses an individual's freedom of speech. We also put fluoride in our water and iodine in our salt for the "greater good." Minority rights are a protected class in many arenas; taking away an individual's right to discriminate at will. My taxes fund schools despite the fact that I have no children. etc. etc.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I wonder if they really look at their logic. They hate the idea of a risk of autism. But there is also a risk of death from the actual disease. Makes me want to ask them: Do you hate autistic kids so much you'd rather have your child die than be like them?
You do realize that there is zero evidence of increased risk of autism from vaccinations. Right?
I really had no idea that the programs didn't have the same science requirements.
And while I don't remember all of my chem all those years ago, someone could really school me right now, I'd still had to be able to pass college level org and non org chem. I have seen some ASN grads that tarnish the degree (and I'm sure it works for the BSN's as well) but that really would explain it for the few I have wondered about.
Let me start by saying (can I shout it?). . .
Not all nursing programs are created equal!!!!
This thread highlights a perfect example.
A few years ago, I was softening to the anti-vaxx rhetoric. I was an experienced critical-care nurse.
My ADN program had NO chemistry (except what was thrown in with A&P), no statistics, NO research of ANY kind. Well respected program, always >90% pass rate for their graduates.
My eyes were opened with my first research course. In combination with statistics, it was a game-changer.
And it's not just us more experienced nurses. I hear from ADN nurses much younger than I how they are desperate to find an RN to BSN program with as little to no chemistry, statistics, and the easiest research course.
I know there are ADN programs out there with fantastic research classes. I know there are BSN programs out there with not-so-stellar research courses. If we ever get the determination to standardize RN education, there will be no excuse. Graduates with poor science backgrounds will be that way due to a poor school. There won't be the excuse of educational background, the accountability will be raised.
I over heard the funniest (to me) comment. Anti vaccinate parents, if they have pets, have vaccinate their pets! How do they reconcile that?
think this is mandated... at least that is what they told me. once you bring in your animal, they ask a series of questions and WILL NOT let you leave without one.
Gooselady, BSN, RN
601 Posts
Good point, I think that is the core issue. Fear is frequently irrational, and when it comes to poking needles into your baby's thigh every three months, three and four vacs at a time, it's pretty horrifying, even to me!
I was sitting with my son and DIL looking at the vaccination schedule for their six week old daughter (six months old now) and I was genuinely shocked at the sheer number of vaccinations. I went and grabbed my son's vacc schedule and kids today are getting a lot more (like, I know, this is obvious).
My son and DIL are pro-vac but still we sort of reeled around at ALL those things being shoved into a bitty baby's body. We hovered over her for that first 24 hrs afterward (she was FINE).
So -- irrational fear on our part? Well, yes, but . . . I can understand the reluctance. At the same time, this is the reality. If any whiff of conspiracy theory about Big Pharma enters the picture my ears turn off. Please, people.
I don't think 'shouting down' or condemning anti-vaxxers is going to help them, it will just scare them more. They have REASONS (albeit uninformed, uneducated and irrationally fearful ones) that we still have to 'respect' and work with, for the sake of their children not to mention ours.