I went into nursing because I love science and medicine, and thought working with like-minded people to deliver high-quality care sounded like a great job. Since entering the profession, however, I've discovered that there is widespread mistrust and criticism of education and research in nursing. Nurses who are curious and love to ask questions are sneered at, and nurses who pursue further education are labeled "book smart" and lacking the prized "street smarts", which seems to equate to knowing how to start an IV. I've never heard of any other profession where furthering one's education is seen as a bad thing. I'm feeling so disappointed about this attitude, and really disenchanted with nursing. I loved school, I love learning, and I think more education is always, always, always a good thing. Will I always be an outcast in nursing because of this? If we want to be taken seriously as professionals, shouldn't we be embracing theory and knowledge and intellectual curiosity?
I'm sorry...I am forever amused/frustrated/angered by these statements. Who does everyone think has cared for all of these patients and technology the past 40 years when technology exploded?
Who does everyone think cared for the open hearts and new transplants? Who does everyone think cared for the first TPA patients? The first portable VAD patients? The new computers? Monitors and drugs to the market. The first invasive cardiac patients? Who cared for the first transplants?
This reminds me of something I saw on TV once (the History channel I think?) They were talking about the advancements in facial reconstruction following WWI. Facial trauma was an effect of trench warfare because that was the first part in the line of fire as the soldier rose above the rim of the trench. They showed a progression of photos of one young man who had had half his face blown off, from the initial injury to after all reconstruction was done. I. Was. Astounded!! His surgeries were done in the 1910s and 1920s--just about 100 years ago! They did an AMAZING job--even better than the big ENT CA surgeries that I cared for early in my career.
I imagine these nurses had their work cut out for them--not just the surgeons! All that wound care, monitoring those flaps...
I am in an RN-to-BSN program myself and while some of the info is useful, I personally believe that certifications enhance practice more than theory alone. Certifications demonstrate in-depth knowledge of a nurse's specialty, advanced beyond the generalized nursing education of school. Beyond the BSN? Again I am not against education at all, but for a lot of us it makes no sense to continue to the terminal degree. The meager pay increase is not worth the time and money involved in graduate obtaining an MSN or DNP. I have absolutely zero desire to be a researcher or in management. I am a nurse and I want TO nurse people. If CCRN were a master's degree program and not a self study/pass exam certification, I'd be getting my MSN in a heartbeat.
Re: the whole "nurses don't get respect because we're viewed as wage earning laborers vs salary earning professionals" argument......
it's woth pointing out that in spite of this supposed "working class" image of nursing, the public consistently ranks nurses as one of the most trusted and admired professions.
Working Class is not synonymous with ingnorant nor does upper-middle class equal more educated or intellectual. I disagree with the poster who suggested nursing ought to aspire to give the impression of having an upper-middle class background. The Upper Milddle Class has a few less than admirable traits of its own. It's been one of the most reactionary, insulated and selfish classes of people in the history of mankind. It's obsessed with conspicuous consumption and has always had a "Let them eat cake" mentality. The higher rates of higher education among this class has everything to do with money and very little to do with intellectual idealism.
I think one motivation among BSN-only supporters is a sincere desire to raise standards and improve outcomes. But its not the only motivation. Few would admit it, but there's also a very real motivation to eliminate LPN ands ADNs for the sole purpose of restricting the entry of the lower classes into the profession. That's the darker side of the argument that rarely gets mentioned.
Doesn't hurt to fight to keep it from happening...if LPNs and ASNs are supposed to be phased out and the "white paper" for BSN entry is close to 50 years old and it hasn't successfully happened heck, it will stay around for another 50 years, and by then another cycle of a nursing shortage will happen, and it won't even matter anymore, except for a few that have issues with equating degrees to professionalism.
I think every BSN(or any nursing degree for that matter) needs a course in professionalism, because boy, have I seen some unprofessional people, including those who are suppose to be BSNs (or higher). They really needed it... That is my one pet peeve, that "I am better than thou" attitude. I am going to graduate with a BSN in 2 months and I will always show respect to anyone I work with, take care of, or interact with in general.
As for this whole conversation, pursuing education is a personal endeavor. If you are someone who is thirsty for knowledge, loves the challenge of broadening their horizon, and has a passion for making an impact on the nursing world, then who cares what others think!
However...it goes both ways.
Don't rub it in either... Some people have just have different perspectives on pursuing education (such as they see a BSN as just another marketing ploy). But the best example is all the views that are in this thread alone.
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
I wholeheartedly agree that people should gain experience, start at the bottom and work their way up the career ladder.
I agree that shortcuts to management will lead to nothing good but I don't think that most people who earn a BSN are walking around calling nurses who have an ASN "incompetent". If that actually happened to anyone that's shocking. I just don't know any BSN or MSN nurses that would say these things, they respect people because of work ethic not what degree they earned.
Do most people feel this is generally a management attitude or is this actually happening with your peers?
I've never heard any manager call an ADN RN incompetent. The issue isn't so much what happens on the floor, but the overall policy statements by the proponents of BSN entry-to-practice laws. It just permeates the entire field. The term "uneducated" is not used as an epithet, but institutionalized and used in scholarly position papers.
There is a real conundrum created by the fact that nobody can tell you exactly what sets the BSN apart from the ADN. Many of the advantages claimed are nebulous or even contradictory, which may explain why there has never been a concerted effort to create a separate NCLEX exam for BSN grads. It's just easier to rely on innuendo and half-truth when you can't define your own agenda by empiric means.
The closest thing to specifics on that are contained in the 2010 IOM report. It's a whole bunch of jargon that boils down to some very straightforward opinions.... that the ADN taught by "rote memorization", is too dumb to figure out high-tech medical gadgetry, comprehend the complexities of electronic medical records, navigate the referral process, tell the patient what kind of insurance they have, doesn't get the concept of teamwork, and will not be invited to attend Steering Committee meetings. They don't need to come right out and say "incompetent", they will just continue to define themselves off the back of fellow RNs, an incredibly destructive force within nursing.
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
I read this question to be what I have experienced with clinicals asking my preceptors things. They will do a certain thing and I will ask them what the rationale is and they look at me like I'm a lunatic -- and occasionally get short with me and not seem to want to talk to me anymore. Never mind, then. I'm just over here trying to make connections and learn something with my 12 hours. Trust me, I would be happy just going and getting my ADN (I already have a bachelor's -- they're overrated and I don't really need another) and working but I am more concerned about even getting a job in the first place and then just maybe going on to graduate school later on.
Here is a perfect example. Nurses trained in these minimal programs aren't being taught properly. They are given a minimal education. This goes at the MSN level as well. Minimal work/requirements.....checking off boxes and you have a degree. I was taught rationale and pathophys, therefore, I have ALWAYS given rationale to ANYONE who I've taught or precepted. I think it is also another example of losing the seasoned nurse from the bedside.
I would like to know what it is to work as a bedside nurse prior to going to graduate school, for what it's worth. There's no point in being in admin and not knowing what people are really going through on the floor. You can't really affect meaningful change that really helps people if you don't understand the problem. I've worked in retail -- I've dealt with people who never had to work up any ladder. They tend to be pretty horrible leaders with absolutely no connection to the people working under them and with no sense of what is going on. You have to be in it with people in order to lead effectively. When people start at the top with no clue, no one wants to listen to them and the communication breakdown can have some serious ramifications.
I believe that this is true....I do long for the day that managers, CNO's, and directors were promoted because they were excellent experienced bedside professionals. I think nursing as a while was better off having someone who leads that has been in the trenches his/herself.
There are rare individuals in leadership that are clinical experts...but they are far and few between. The ones I know have left leadership for the academic world because they do not like what is being done administratively to nurses.
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
Welcome to AN! The largest online nursing community!
I agree that there is an undercurrent of anti-intellectualism in nursing, despite the efforts of nursing educators and researchers to make the field more academically serious. Part of this is due to our lack of educational standards (the entry-level for our profession is much lower than those of our colleagues). But I think the main problem (which no one wants to talk about) is not education. It is class. Physicians and other professionals have historically come from upper classes. Nurses have historically come from working and lower classes. Like it or not, rich kids who are interested in a career with prestige wouldn't dare dream of nursing school. It's medical school all the way.
While you are entitled to your opinion...I couldn't disagree more.
Nurses are viewed positively by the public
The public's long-standing esteem for registered nurses (RNs) is well documented in public opinion polls. Nurses and physicians both rate highly with the public in trended national survey questions about trusted professions, prestigious occupations, and "honesty and ethical standards" of the professions (Gallup Organization, 2007; Harris Interactive 2006, 2007).
PRINCETON, NJ -- Nurses continue to outrank other professions in Gallup's annual Honesty and Ethics survey. Eighty-one percent of Americans say nurses have "very high" or "high" honesty and ethical standards, a significantly greater percentage than for the next-highest-rated professions, military officers and pharmacists. Americans rate car salespeople, lobbyists, and members of Congress as having the lowest honesty and ethics, with the last two getting a majority of "low" or "very low" ratings.
StubbyToots Most nurses seem to come from working class backgrounds, have limited vocabulary/spelling/grammar skills, and speak with lower-class ("redneck" or "Ebonics") accents. I am not trying to insult anyone, but this is what I have observed. If we want respect for our profession, we have to present ourselves with class and professionalism. I'm not saying we have to be stuck-up, but I'm sure you have noticed that the public sees nurses as low class, menial labor, hourly wage workers and not as educated professionals from the upper middle class.
It's about class? "redneck? Ebonics? Accents? limited vocabulary? Low class? meinla labor? I have been a nurse for 35 years and I have NEVER! experienced this perception.
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent" Eleanor Roosevelt
I agree that there is an undercurrent of anti-intellectualism in nursing, despite the efforts of nursing educators and researchers to make the field more academically serious. Part of this is due to our lack of educational standards (the entry-level for our profession is much lower than those of our colleagues). But I think the main problem (which no one wants to talk about) is not education. It is class. Physicians and other professionals have historically come from upper classes. Nurses have historically come from working and lower classes. Like it or not, rich kids who are interested in a career with prestige wouldn't dare dream of nursing school. It's medical school all the way. Most nurses seem to come from working class backgrounds, have limited vocabulary/spelling/grammar skills, and speak with lower-class ("redneck" or "Ebonics") accents. I am not trying to insult anyone, but this is what I have observed. If we want respect for our profession, we have to present ourselves with class and professionalism. I'm not saying we have to be stuck-up, but I'm sure you have noticed that the public sees nurses as low class, menial labor, hourly wage workers and not as educated professionals from the upper middle class.
I guess it depends on where you work. I've definitely made some of these observations at my hospital (large inner city hospital). There are many RNs from the surrounding city (myself included) with proclivity for certain forms of speech. We have accents and vernaculars that identify with our city.
The way you speak and present yourself has nothing to do with your intelligence though, it has everything to do with people's *perception* of your intelligence and I think that's what you mean. When I'm communicating to a physician I will do so with a descriptive, thought-out, and appropriate medical lexicon. If I tell one of my patients I'm giving them a diuretic, they might not understand given that name. So I tell them "This is Lasix, it is a diuretic. You may have heard it referred to as a 'water pill' and that's because that makes sense! It will make you go!" I could explain osmosis, ion transport, what furosemide does in the loop of Henle, etc, but that wouldn't mean anything to them.
I believe this is what the true value of the nursing profession is: the synthesis of the average person and a trained medical professional. If we couldn't relate to average people on a natural, human level, nursing wouldn't be nursing. The face of healthcare would not be the same. That's what has consistently ranked nursing as the most trusted profession as Esme said above.
I've never heard any manager call an ADN RN incompetent. The issue isn't so much what happens on the floor, but the overall policy statements by the proponents of BSN entry-to-practice laws. It just permeates the entire field. The term "uneducated" is not used as an epithet, but institutionalized and used in scholarly position papers.
There is a real conundrum created by the fact that nobody can tell you exactly what sets the BSN apart from the ADN. Many of the advantages claimed are nebulous or even contradictory, which may explain why there has never been a concerted effort to create a separate NCLEX exam for BSN grads. It's just easier to rely on innuendo and half-truth when you can't define your own agenda by empiric means.
The closest thing to specifics on that are contained in the 2010 IOM report. It's a whole bunch of jargon that boils down to some very straightforward opinions.... that the ADN taught by "rote memorization", is too dumb to figure out high-tech medical gadgetry, comprehend the complexities of electronic medical records, navigate the referral process, tell the patient what kind of insurance they have, doesn't get the concept of teamwork, and will not be invited to attend Steering Committee meetings. They don't need to come right out and say "incompetent", they will just continue to define themselves off the back of fellow RNs, an incredibly destructive force within nursing.
.
I watched my boyfriend and his team of IT guys who were only hired with AS or AA degrees + certifications lose every opportunity to advance their careers to their Penn State BS interns. It's devastating to see the sheer lack of respect from corporate. The advances degree push is a societal problem that is hurting the most experienced and valuable people in the workforce. I want to say it's the same scenario but it really isn't now that I think about it, he was never forced to get a BA...encouraged (they would reimburse him) but not forced. Now that he refuses, he can't get any real promotions because they instituted a requirement for a minimum education of BA/BS and MA/MS for all positions. Thinking back on it his job was never actually in jeopardy like some nurse's jobs may be. I do get why this is so detrimental to nursing.
These policies are hurting everyone in some way, no one wants the debt of the BSN but we don't have a choice anymore. The reality for people just starting out is: No BS/BA degree = No Job and/or unemployment line. It's tough out there, people are so desperate for jobs so they will take on the debt.
You all bring a lot of perspective to the discussion regarding the policy driven dilemma in nursing. It's also eye opening to read some of the comments about education but what bothers me is if no one is treating ASN nurses this way on the floor, why are some BSN nurses getting backlash on the floor? The OP is saying nurses have to deal with the "sneers" and this backlash, what's up with that?
Most people I know in nursing work well together and this isn't the norm. It's just an attitude that is noticed more recently and there seems to be a trend in some places. Sometimes it seems like when people try to vent about it they are told it must be them...not necessarily.
Specializes in Nurse Leader specializing in Labor & Delivery.
I read this question to be what I have experienced with clinicals asking my preceptors things. They will do a certain thing and I will ask them what the rationale is and they look at me like I'm a lunatic -- and occasionally get short with me and not seem to want to talk to me anymore.
And that makes me sad. I'm never afraid to learn, or afraid to say "you know what? I'm not sure." I think those are excellent teaching moments. When something like that comes up and I can't give the student an answer, I will often say "Why don't you look it up and teach ME, then we'll both learn something today."
A lot of people are bringing up the "nurses as most trusted professionals" lists. Of course topping these lists is a good thing, and something we should be proud of, but I've always thought that there is a serious misogynistic undercurrent to our placement on those lists. We're not on those lists because the public sees us as intelligent, educated leaders. We're on those lists because we're seen as nurturing, caring, trustworthy, non-threatening maternal figures. This is a huge problem for nursing, and something that really frustrates me. All of those qualities are great, of course, but they're not what makes us worthy of the public's trust: our knowledge of our field is what makes us trustworthy.
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
A lot of people are bringing up the "nurses as most trusted professionals" lists. Of course topping these lists is a good thing, and something we should be proud of, but I've always thought that there is a serious misogynistic undercurrent to our placement on those lists. We're not on those lists because the public sees us as intelligent, educated leaders. We're on those lists because we're seen as nurturing, caring, trustworthy, non-threatening maternal figures. This is a huge problem for nursing, and something that really frustrates me. All of those qualities are great, of course, but they're not what makes us worthy of the public's trust: our knowledge of our field is what makes us trustworthy.
I only posted them in specific response to a post
Stubby toots: Most nurses seem to come from working class backgrounds, have limited vocabulary/spelling/grammar skills, and speak with lower-class ("redneck" or "Ebonics") accents.
Trust me, I would be happy just going and getting my ADN (I already have a bachelor's -- they're overrated and I don't really need another) and working but I am more concerned about even getting a job in the first place and then just maybe going on to graduate school later on. 
Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN
5,047 Posts
This reminds me of something I saw on TV once (the History channel I think?) They were talking about the advancements in facial reconstruction following WWI. Facial trauma was an effect of trench warfare because that was the first part in the line of fire as the soldier rose above the rim of the trench. They showed a progression of photos of one young man who had had half his face blown off, from the initial injury to after all reconstruction was done. I. Was. Astounded!! His surgeries were done in the 1910s and 1920s--just about 100 years ago! They did an AMAZING job--even better than the big ENT CA surgeries that I cared for early in my career.
I imagine these nurses had their work cut out for them--not just the surgeons! All that wound care, monitoring those flaps...
I am in an RN-to-BSN program myself and while some of the info is useful, I personally believe that certifications enhance practice more than theory alone. Certifications demonstrate in-depth knowledge of a nurse's specialty, advanced beyond the generalized nursing education of school. Beyond the BSN? Again I am not against education at all, but for a lot of us it makes no sense to continue to the terminal degree. The meager pay increase is not worth the time and money involved in graduate obtaining an MSN or DNP. I have absolutely zero desire to be a researcher or in management. I am a nurse and I want TO nurse people. If CCRN were a master's degree program and not a self study/pass exam certification, I'd be getting my MSN in a heartbeat.