I went into nursing because I love science and medicine, and thought working with like-minded people to deliver high-quality care sounded like a great job. Since entering the profession, however, I've discovered that there is widespread mistrust and criticism of education and research in nursing. Nurses who are curious and love to ask questions are sneered at, and nurses who pursue further education are labeled "book smart" and lacking the prized "street smarts", which seems to equate to knowing how to start an IV. I've never heard of any other profession where furthering one's education is seen as a bad thing. I'm feeling so disappointed about this attitude, and really disenchanted with nursing. I loved school, I love learning, and I think more education is always, always, always a good thing. Will I always be an outcast in nursing because of this? If we want to be taken seriously as professionals, shouldn't we be embracing theory and knowledge and intellectual curiosity?
Anti-intellectualism in nursing? Well, I'm going to approach a very sensitive subject...
Certain professions such as nursing, social work and elementary education, have heavily attracted first generation college students who were the first ones in their families to have ever attended college, and thus, may have been reared in homes where intellectualism might not have been a daily feature of family life.
My mother got a master's degree at the age of 21 from an Ivy school after graduating from one of the Seven Sisters at 19. My father was an Ivy grad, too, and no dummy even though he skated through on "gentleman's Cs" and largely majored in partying (he grew up later). We were all brought up to believe that of course we would go to college. 3 of 4 of us have advanced degrees (MBA, MBFinance, and MN) and the fourth is an international consultant in his field. The conversations can be pretty interesting, when we're speaking to each other. :)
I totally understand that this outlook on life and learning makes me the exception that proves the rule (in the original sense of the word when that saying was new: "to prove" means "to test." Cf., "the proof is in the pudding," and to proof your salt pork before frying something in it, et al.) but of course it also probably accounts for the irritation I have when anti-intellectualism rears its largely ignorant head, anywhere at all, but most of all in my beloved profession. Nursing needs brains as well as backs. Does anybody think that Florence wasn't brilliant?
I have spent years giving bedside care in both gritty urban settings and more gorgeous university hospitals, and done a lot of other work in nursing in and out of traditional settings. But there has never been a moment when I didn't feel the urge to wonder why, investigate, explore, improvise, collaborate, and explain. Not to do so at every turn would be not only out of character, but literally incomprehensible to me.
How can people not want to use the brains they were given? How can anyone be willfully against the idea of knowing more? Of course I know these people; I tried to teach a passel of them in an LPN-ASN program once. Their hospital was phasing out LPNs and offered all of their LPN employees free tuition to come to the college where I taught to obtain an ASN, and free tutoring for NCLEX-RN prn. I cannot tell you how astonished I was to hear a number of them say, out loud and in class, often, that they didn't want to learn anything new, didn't want any such promotion or responsibility, and hadn't the smallest interest in pretty much anything we had on the curriculum, and they were only here because they would lose their jobs if they didn't come. You'd have thought we were advocating child sacrifice or genital mutilation or something, there was that much outrage. Not all of them felt that way, of course; some jumped at the opportunity and embraced it! But it was a largely hostile crowd we faced night after night. This was very wearing even as we tried to ease them into liking it.
I completely understand that people get settled in their ways and would rather coast through life, getting, for lack of a better way to describe it, gentlemen's Cs in life in general. But my lord. Keep it to yourself, and don't crank at anyone who wants to do better. To do so says more about you than it does about your target, you know, and it's really not flattering.
My mother got a master's degree at the age of 21 from an Ivy school after graduating from one of the Seven Sisters at 19. My father was an Ivy grad, too, and no dummy even though he skated through on "gentleman's Cs" and largely majored in partying (he grew up later). We were all brought up to believe that of course we would go to college. 3 of 4 of us have advanced degrees (MBA, MBFinance, and MN) and the fourth is an international consultant in his field. The conversations can be pretty interesting, when we're speaking to each other. :)
I totally understand that this outlook on life and learning makes me the exception that proves the rule (in the original sense of the word when that saying was new: "to prove" means "to test." Cf., "the proof is in the pudding," and to proof your salt pork before frying something in it, et al.) but of course it also probably accounts for the irritation I have when anti-intellectualism rears its largely ignorant head, anywhere at all, but most of all in my beloved profession. Nursing needs brains as well as backs. Does anybody think that Florence wasn't brilliant?
I have spent years giving bedside care in both gritty urban settings and more gorgeous university hospitals, and done a lot of other work in nursing in and out of traditional settings. But there has never been a moment when I didn't feel the urge to wonder why, investigate, explore, improvise, collaborate, and explain. Not to do so at every turn would be not only out of character, but literally incomprehensible to me.
How can people not want to use the brains they were given? How can anyone be willfully against the idea of knowing more? Of course I know these people; I tried to teach a passel of them in an LPN-ASN program once. Their hospital was phasing out LPNs and offered all of their LPN employees free tuition to come to the college where I taught to obtain an ASN, and free tutoring for NCLEX-RN prn. I cannot tell you how astonished I was to hear a number of them say, out loud and in class, often, that they didn't want to learn anything new, didn't want any such promotion or responsibility, and hadn't the smallest interest in pretty much anything we had on the curriculum, and they were only here because they would lose their jobs if they didn't come. You'd have thought we were advocating child sacrifice or genital mutilation or something, there was that much outrage. Not all of them felt that way, of course; some jumped at the opportunity and embraced it! But it was a largely hostile crowd we faced night after night. This was very wearing even as we tried to ease them into liking it.
I completely understand that people get settled in their ways and would rather coast through life, getting, for lack of a better way to describe it, gentlemen's Cs in life in general. But my lord. Keep it to yourself, and don't crank at anyone who wants to do better. To do so says more about you than it does about your target, you know, and it's really not flattering.
Flameproofies on, fire away.
Only thing I'm firing up is my flame-proof clapping mittens. Wouldn't want my hands to catch fire with all the applauding I'm doing. Again, GrnTea, you so eloquently said exactly what I was thinking.
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
Not in the eyes of many members of the public, especially ones who lack a certain level of sophistry.
When presented with a type-A nurse who is the real deal (highly intelligent, analytical, thoroughly educated, knowledgeable, strict boundaries) and a type-B nurse (bubbly personality, hand-holding, free-spirited, not terribly knowledgeable, enforces no boundaries), the overwhelming majority of patients and families will pick the type-B nurse because he/she is the one who makes them feel good about themselves.
Human nature is bizarre. People claim to want the truth, but many cannot handle the truth very well. In essence, many of our patients and their families prefer the cheerful Pollyanna personality who will tell them exactly what they wish to hear. I've seen too many wonderful nurses with exceedingly vast funds of knowledge get cast aside to make room for perky, cheerily upbeat nurses who fail to rescue when something goes down. Although the perky nurse might negatively impact patient outcomes, her invigorating personality will enhance the hospital's patient satisfaction scores.
Patients and families who lack sophistication often formulate decisions based on factors such as emotion and hearsay, and they tend to be mistrustful of aspects such as formal education, research, and (yes) intellectual pursuits. These people almost always place their full trust in the type-B nurse because he/she validates their existence, reaffirms their views of the world, tells them what they want to hear and basically helps them feel good on the inside.
To many members of the general public, the highly educated clinician who engages in deep analytical thought is suspicious and untrustworthy. On the other hand, the carefree nurse who lacks a sense of urgency often wins peoples' trust. It is what it is.
I have seen even highly educated members of the public, some who work in healthcare in non-clinical positions place their full trust in the type-B nurse because, to them, the "warm and fuzzies" equate with "customer service" and for all of their education and sophistication, they just don't understand the role competence plays in recovery. It's all about the customer service.
Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
Its interesting that you find it embarrassing that such traits as 'nurturing', 'caring' and 'non-threatening' are the first things the public thinks of when it comes to nurses. Why is it so important for 'intelligent' and 'educated' to come before those others? .
What troubles me is that so many -- even educated, supposedly sophisticated and "upper class" patients -- never seem to get beyond the "nurturing," "caring' and "Non-threatening" stereotypes of nursing to understand that we are educated professionals with a contribution beyond pillow fluffing and bringing your dilaudid. The doctor saved their life, the nurse is supposed to "make them feel good."
Unfortunately, most of what comes immediately after cardiac surgery, especially in the ICU phase, doesn't make them feel good and they cannot seem to equate it with saving their life. I had a patient tell me he wanted 10 hours of undisturbed sleep and then he'd try his incentive spirometer, his physical therapy and eating that nasty hospital food. He was adamant about that, and nothing I could say as an educated, experienced, knowledgable nurse could convince him that NOT doing his breathing exercises, walking, sitting in the chair, etc. for a full day would be detrimental to his recovery. He had already made up his mind -- he wasn't going to listen to my teaching about the importance of pulmonary toilet or sternal precautions or diuresis or choking precautions, he was just going to lie in bed all day and drunk a bunch of water and demand pillow fluffing. Sadly for me, my constant attempts to educated, cajole and coax him into doing what was good for him didn't make him feel good . . . . The man was an ass, but he was a close friend of the head of Cardiology, who didn't know me but decided I must be a terrible person and an abysmal nurse since I failed so utterly to make his friend "feel good." It took the interventions of the cardiac surgeon, the intensivist and my manager to convince my former patient and his friend the Important Cardiologist that I had done my job and done it well and they were misinformed about what Cardiac Surgery ICU nurses do. It was a very difficult and stressful time for me. The Cardiologist has since apologized about his part in the debacle, but he apologized privately to me and not publiclly in front of all of the people he tore me to shreds in front of.
I don't think I have it in me to do less than my best or to not do the right thing (assuming I know what that is), but experiences like this have tempted me to just give them what they want and blow off the right thing, or doing what's good for them. Unfortunately, I'm old and don't do perky well.
Hi Brandon- as a man, you're not privy to the struggle of women in stereotypically "female" professions to prove their value and get beyond words like "caring" and nurturing." If you don't "see" any misogyny in nursing, it's because you're not experiencing it.
I'm not embarrassed by these traits being associated with nursing. I'm upset that it's these traits and no others that are associated with nursing. These days, men are encouraged and praised for being comfortable with displaying these "feminine" qualities, which of course is a wonderful thing. Women, however, are dismissed, looked down upon, condescended to, and passed over for promotions when we act caring and nurturing. When male nurses hold hands, rub feet, communicate therapeutically, and engage in the "soft" parts of our job, they're patted on the back. Female nurses are just expected to do these things, and when we don't, we're "bossy", "cold", or "*******."
Nursing is becoming an intellectual field? Becoming? Uhmmm....as far as I'm concerned it has been an intellectual field for years where critical thinking and independent thinking has been prevalent all along.
I'm sorry...I am forever amused/frustrated/angered by these statements. Who does everyone think has cared for all of these patients and technology the past 40 years when technology exploded?
Who does everyone think cared for the open hearts and new transplants? Who does everyone think cared for the first TPA patients? The first portable VAD patients? The new computers? Monitors and drugs to the market. The first invasive cardiac patients? Who cared for the first transplants?
Heck... I remember the first time I hung IV nitro and TPA....I was in no teaching facility and the MD was at home. Our surgeons went home and left the fresh CABG patients in our care with standard orders to use at our discretion, education, and critical thinking process.
Just exactly who does everyone think cared for these complicated cutting edge patients? Considering that the major majority of the workforce were diploma and ADN/ASN grads....IT WAS US! It was this group of highly educated, skilled, and experienced group of R's who are now called/considerd "under-educated", non critical thinking, non intellectual working force of nurses. Nurses.... who are being mistreated and tossed in the trash because we don't have history, English lit, statistics, or other fluff courses to fill the 4 year college requirements.
Really? Task oriented, non critically thinking nurses? I think NOT!
Many of us have our specialty certifications (and they cost a pretty penny by the way) which by far... makes us the most competent in the working force. Yet were are being tossed in the ditch under the guise of being "undereducated" and requiring a BSN. All this just because the facilities want to get rid of the senior nurses because we are verbal, higher paid, and are less inclined to put up with the current treatment by management/administration.
I am NOT against advancing the nursing entry requirement FOR THE FUTURE. HOWEVER...I resent the implication that nurses with years at the bedside have suddenly become complete and utter morons who lack the mental capacity to critically think....
It really chaps my ass at the propaganda perpetuated by the "powers that be" when their true driving force is cutting salaries, selling test books, self promotion, and job security.
I have my BSN...gained after I had a very successful career in critical care and emergency medicine paid in full by my boss. After 35 years...It added ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to my ability to lead, my critical thinking skills, nor my ability to care for critically injured or critically ill patients. There was no advanced pathophys...I had that 35 years ago on my ASN program. What I didn't learn I learned on the job through experience, continuing education, and certifications in my specialties.
There I feel better. I seldom get annoyed but this is one that annoys me.
I apologize for not replying sooner, did not see this. Also, sorry for implying nurses did not critically think before now.
I can see where you are coming from. However, what I meant was that (again, in my limited experience, so feel free to educate me) is that nursing has been more of a task-oriented field. I don't feel that, in and of itself, is insulting/offensive.
What I am saying is that, not every nurse, out the gate, has those critical thinking skills. And, in the past, not every nurse required those skills to make it.
Let me also state that I DO NOT consider Eng Lit, etc to be necessary to practice as a nurse, however, there is a standard that should be met for a university graduate, knowledge that should be taken for granted. I would also argue that those gen ed classes broaden the mind and allow students to interact with a wider range of people. For the record, I do support standardizing the requirements to be a nurse.
However, in order for me to feel more secure in MY nursing knowledge, I would have appreciated classes such as those you had, advanced patho, in-depth physical assessment etc, those classes, I feel would have prepared me to critically think with a lot more tools at my disposal.
Based on what you said, For whatever reason, be it a "shortage" of nurses, or making money, nursing schools (ASN, BSN) have "dumbed down" the curriculum, and it hurts the profession as a whole.
Again, I might be wrong, but it is my opinion, that outside of critical care, nurses for the most part are performing tasks. That's not to say that M/S nurses do not critically think, but that the level of critical thought necessary is not the same as in the ED or ICU.
How many times has a smart nurse heard the question "why didn't you go to med school?" How many patients prefer the warm, bubbly nurse who does not know the correct dose, versus the smart one who lacks conversation skills. Nurses have a history of being generally viewed as a "doctor's helper". Which we kinda, sorta are. We help them carry out orders that they cannot, not because those orders are outside their scope of practice, but simply because they do not have the time (shortage of physicians). Nurses also, of course, assess and evaluate, but only an experienced nurse will be able to accurately recommend what should be done for the patient. And still, a doctor must approve of those orders.
All that to say, that while I believe nursing is a highly skilled profession, not every nurse is highly skilled in critical thinking.
I do hold a vast amount of respect and admiration for you and other experienced nurses here, and I hope to continue to learn from everyone here.
>As long as "spiritual distress" and other such silliness is part of our basic education- we are never going to be respected along with the other science degrees.
Hi Brandon- as a man, you're not privy to the struggle of women in stereotypically "female" professions to prove their value and get beyond words like "caring" and nurturing." If you don't "see" any misogyny in nursing, it's because you're not experiencing it.
I'm not embarrassed by these traits being associated with nursing. I'm upset that it's these traits and no others that are associated with nursing. These days, men are encouraged and praised for being comfortable with displaying these "feminine" qualities, which of course is a wonderful thing. Women, however, are dismissed, looked down upon, condescended to, and passed over for promotions when we act caring and nurturing. When male nurses hold hands, rub feet, communicate therapeutically, and engage in the "soft" parts of our job, they're patted on the back. Female nurses are just expected to do these things, and when we don't, we're "bossy", "cold", or "*******."
For the same reason men cannot comment on the presence/absence of mysogeny in nursing, neither can you comment on the perception of men in nursing. That's a double standard and I resent it. I've had plenty of eyebrows or awkward silences directed towards me upon saying "I'm TU RN, your nurse." From having my sexuality openly questioned by patients, families, coworkers, to being called fa**ot by patients and families, to being called "soft" directly to my face by a coworker - we men have our own problems in this profession. By the same token that you (as a woman) are expected to be nurturing and caring, I (as a man) am expected to be tough and confrontational which I most certainly am neither. You can imagine my dismay when I am bestowed the 250lb agitated EtOH withdrawaler by the female charge nurse because "he needs a man."
My mother got a master's degree at the age of 21 from an Ivy school after graduating from one of the Seven Sisters at 19. My father was an Ivy grad, too, and no dummy even though he skated through on "gentleman's Cs" and largely majored in partying (he grew up later). We were all brought up to believe that of course we would go to college. 3 of 4 of us have advanced degrees (MBA, MBFinance, and MN) and the fourth is an international consultant in his field. The conversations can be pretty interesting, when we're speaking to each other. :)
I totally understand that this outlook on life and learning makes me the exception that proves the rule (in the original sense of the word when that saying was new: "to prove" means "to test." Cf., "the proof is in the pudding," and to proof your salt pork before frying something in it, et al.) but of course it also probably accounts for the irritation I have when anti-intellectualism rears its largely ignorant head, anywhere at all, but most of all in my beloved profession. Nursing needs brains as well as backs. Does anybody think that Florence wasn't brilliant?
I have spent years giving bedside care in both gritty urban settings and more gorgeous university hospitals, and done a lot of other work in nursing in and out of traditional settings. But there has never been a moment when I didn't feel the urge to wonder why, investigate, explore, improvise, collaborate, and explain. Not to do so at every turn would be not only out of character, but literally incomprehensible to me.
How can people not want to use the brains they were given? How can anyone be willfully against the idea of knowing more? Of course I know these people; I tried to teach a passel of them in an LPN-ASN program once. Their hospital was phasing out LPNs and offered all of their LPN employees free tuition to come to the college where I taught to obtain an ASN, and free tutoring for NCLEX-RN prn. I cannot tell you how astonished I was to hear a number of them say, out loud and in class, often, that they didn't want to learn anything new, didn't want any such promotion or responsibility, and hadn't the smallest interest in pretty much anything we had on the curriculum, and they were only here because they would lose their jobs if they didn't come. You'd have thought we were advocating child sacrifice or genital mutilation or something, there was that much outrage. Not all of them felt that way, of course; some jumped at the opportunity and embraced it! But it was a largely hostile crowd we faced night after night. This was very wearing even as we tried to ease them into liking it.
I completely understand that people get settled in their ways and would rather coast through life, getting, for lack of a better way to describe it, gentlemen's Cs in life in general. But my lord. Keep it to yourself, and don't crank at anyone who wants to do better. To do so says more about you than it does about your target, you know, and it's really not flattering.
Flameproofies on, fire away.
Free tuition and free tutoring is certainly generous, and kudos to hospitals that offer such programs.
But did it ever occur to you that those LPNs simply did not want to go back to school, free or no? Personally, I know I could afford to go back to school. Heck, if I went to my local community college, I could pay out of pocket. But I don't want to go work full time and school full time, nor do I want to endure the budget constraints that cutting down to part time at work would entail. Basically, I just have no desire, at least at this time. I don't view that as "coasting through life" or as anything I ought to keep to myself. I don't think that it's a manifestation of anti-intellectualism, either. I view it as having gainful employment and living my life.
CNAs exist for a reason. LPNs exist for a reason. RNs and NPs and MDs exist for a reason. There's a role for all. Sure, a RN could do my job, but it wouldn't be cost effective. LPNs and CNAs exist because educating and paying a RN to do the work we do is not feasible. Becoming a LPN or a CNA and working as one indefinitely isn't a compromise, or a bump in the road of education, or coasting or "Gentleman's C's". It's called having a job.
Is everyone who fails to go to a university to be considered anti-intellectual or just coasting lazily through life? Isn't that just a fancy-pants way of looking down your nose at others?
Hi Brandon- as a man, you're not privy to the struggle of women in stereotypically "female" professions to prove their value and get beyond words like "caring" and nurturing." If you don't "see" any misogyny in nursing, it's because you're not experiencing it.
I'm not embarrassed by these traits being associated with nursing. I'm upset that it's these traits and no others that are associated with nursing. These days, men are encouraged and praised for being comfortable with displaying these "feminine" qualities, which of course is a wonderful thing. Women, however, are dismissed, looked down upon, condescended to, and passed over for promotions when we act caring and nurturing. When male nurses hold hands, rub feet, communicate therapeutically, and engage in the "soft" parts of our job, they're patted on the back. Female nurses are just expected to do these things, and when we don't, we're "bossy", "cold", or "*******."
I'll agree there clearly a double standard when it comes to women vs men when it comes to positions of authority in the workplace. But it's hardly unique to nursing. Traits that would be described as 'tough' or 'assertive' in men are too often viewed as being shrewish or *****y in women. But, again, you could say that about any profession.
I think you're overthinking it. I don't think the public associates nursing with "soft" skills because of the female-oriented history of the profession or because of any perceived lack of "hard" education. They perceive us that way because it really is just what our job is. We're the ones at the bedside providing the care. I don't think any change in focus toward hard science in nursing education is going to change that. Nursing is what it is. The majority of us will always be viewed primarily as bedside caregivers.
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nurseprnRN, BSN, RN
1 Article; 5,116 Posts
My mother got a master's degree at the age of 21 from an Ivy school after graduating from one of the Seven Sisters at 19. My father was an Ivy grad, too, and no dummy even though he skated through on "gentleman's Cs" and largely majored in partying (he grew up later). We were all brought up to believe that of course we would go to college. 3 of 4 of us have advanced degrees (MBA, MBFinance, and MN) and the fourth is an international consultant in his field. The conversations can be pretty interesting, when we're speaking to each other. :)
I totally understand that this outlook on life and learning makes me the exception that proves the rule (in the original sense of the word when that saying was new: "to prove" means "to test." Cf., "the proof is in the pudding," and to proof your salt pork before frying something in it, et al.) but of course it also probably accounts for the irritation I have when anti-intellectualism rears its largely ignorant head, anywhere at all, but most of all in my beloved profession. Nursing needs brains as well as backs. Does anybody think that Florence wasn't brilliant?
I have spent years giving bedside care in both gritty urban settings and more gorgeous university hospitals, and done a lot of other work in nursing in and out of traditional settings. But there has never been a moment when I didn't feel the urge to wonder why, investigate, explore, improvise, collaborate, and explain. Not to do so at every turn would be not only out of character, but literally incomprehensible to me.
How can people not want to use the brains they were given? How can anyone be willfully against the idea of knowing more? Of course I know these people; I tried to teach a passel of them in an LPN-ASN program once. Their hospital was phasing out LPNs and offered all of their LPN employees free tuition to come to the college where I taught to obtain an ASN, and free tutoring for NCLEX-RN prn. I cannot tell you how astonished I was to hear a number of them say, out loud and in class, often, that they didn't want to learn anything new, didn't want any such promotion or responsibility, and hadn't the smallest interest in pretty much anything we had on the curriculum, and they were only here because they would lose their jobs if they didn't come. You'd have thought we were advocating child sacrifice or genital mutilation or something, there was that much outrage. Not all of them felt that way, of course; some jumped at the opportunity and embraced it! But it was a largely hostile crowd we faced night after night. This was very wearing even as we tried to ease them into liking it.
I completely understand that people get settled in their ways and would rather coast through life, getting, for lack of a better way to describe it, gentlemen's Cs in life in general. But my lord. Keep it to yourself, and don't crank at anyone who wants to do better. To do so says more about you than it does about your target, you know, and it's really not flattering.
Flameproofies on, fire away.