And I continue my rant of MAs pretending to be nurses..

[nurseby07]

Today I was at a patient's home and had to call the doctor. The answering service said "If you would like to speak to a nurse press 3" So I pressed three.

A girl came on, "This is Tina" and I said "Hi Tina I'm a nurse with so & so and your machine prompt says press three for a nurse. Are you a nurse"

Tina says "Yes. Well, an MA, same thing, go ahead"

Hmmm. What to do what to do?

May I also point out that the reason I am seeing this woman is for a major abdominal post op infection? When she came home from the hospital she developed a fever of 101 with redness and pus at the wound site. She called the service and the "nurse" told her to take an advil and come in for her scheduled appointment in a week.

This was the MA who I had spoken to. The doctor flipped when he saw the wound and she was immediately readmitted for iv abx and debridement. What is going on and who do I report her to?

[work&play]

When I started as an MA, I had a B.A. and I didn't feel, nor feel I'm at an lvn or rn level. Their curricula is way to different than our 8-month training.

[annaedRN, RN]

I definitely agree that the position of each staff member NEEDS to be clearly adressed. I have worked as a CNA, LPN and now an RN...there is a tremendous amount of need, skills and training no matter what your position. As far as patients calling a MA or CNA a nurse...I don't think that they often really care...they just associate the term nurse for someone who will care for and help them. I do wish that somehow the general public could be educated on who does what in the medical profession....maybe one of those big posters you can plaster in pub lic restrooms? :)

[southernbeegirl, BSN, RN]

Ok, I have to have my two cents. First I would like to say that I am currently a medical assistant and have been for the past 6 years. There have been numerous times that I have been called a nurse by the front office staff and the doctors. In the beginning I would accept the title and go about my business, although when a patient directly asks me if I was a nurse I would say, "No, I'm a medical assistant.'" In the beginning of my career I wasn't sure what the difference was. I worked with LVN's and RN's and we did the same job. We gave the same medical advice (which was approved and signed off by the physician), administered the same inoculations, and performed the same laboratory test.

My point is.......whenever a nurse or ma gives medical advice in a office the physician ALWAYS reviews and signs off on the chart. So who is to blame in the event told above, the MA or the doctor? I would have to say both. The physician should have trained his staff properly. The MA has NOT been properly trained. If she was properly trained she would have known to either have the patient seen immediately or to give the information to the physician immediately so that he can delegate a plan of care. Most offices that I gave worked at have approved medical advice the MA's and nurses can provide. For example, every practice that I have worked at (all peds) have had a Barton Schmitt (book of medical advice that can be used as a standard protocol) that the MA or nurse must follow. If the patient does fall within any of the protocols or seems to have a serious medical issue the MA or nurse must immediately get the physician.

Now...the MA should have never claimed to be a nurse. Now, let us take a look at the big picture. When I started my career as a MA I was told that I was doing everything that nurses do. I just wouldn't have a RN behind my name. I was also told that MA's are the SAME as LVN's. As a 16 y/o fresh out of high school I believed them and working with RN's and LVN's doing same back office duties backed my belief. So some MA's might truly not understand the major differences between the two. Now that I am in nursing school I completely understand the difference and promptly correct people when I am called a nurse. I believe that some MA's only understand the surface of disease and there process, how certain medications work, etc. When I started as a MA I already had numerous college credit hours (biology, microbiology, chemistry, organic chemistry, etc) so when I took MA A&P it was obvious that it just touched the surface.

So as a MA, we must understand why nurses are upset. We are claiming to be nurses when we don't have the education or the training to be one. Don't get me wrong, we are very vital to the medical field but we should not claim to be a nurse.

correct me if im wrong, but MAs can NOT give medical advice. you have no education on which to base it. you only carry a certification, no?

[RN1982]

LVNs and MAs to me are not the same. LVNs get nursing education...MAs do not. Not the same.

[CandyGyrl1985]

i agree with annaedrn.

i think that most patients and families do not know better and just associate medical staff with nurses. its not like we wear our scope of practice under our name tag.

i dont mind if a patient does not know better; i will politely correct them. however, if the actual cna or ma refers to themselves as a nurse - that is where the line gets crossed.

we should broaden our naming categories- for associate rns, bachelor rns, lpns, and so forth instead of just grouping them with the name nurse. it seems like the word nurse is used under an umbrella meaning that most people have their own definitions of. which is not fair to the rns that spent the grueling hours learning their practice. nor is it fair to the patients that want a degreed nurse's opinion and expertise. just my

[nurseby07]

You are way nice...I would have said "No, it's not the same thing. I have a degree and a license, YOU have a certificate....anyhow, this patient needs to be admittled to the hospital.Get me in touch with the doctor...." Off rant. I can't tolerate fakers.

I would have if I had been the one calling about the fever. I was calling for a med clarification.

[I see you RN]

I'm writing a thesis on MD/RN communication. Several researchers have found that even docs sometimes don't understand the difference between RN, LVN, and NA. Adding yet another level in there makes the whole thing clear as mud. If our closest colleagues don't have a clear idea of the scope of practice, then expecting patients to understand the difference is hopeless.

The MA passing him- or herself off as "nurse" is an interesting thing. As someone pointed out, the term "nurse" does not mean just LVN or RN. I don't think it would bother me if an MA said they were a "nurse" to a patient, as long as what the patient wanted was withing their scope of practice. Telling a patient that they should just take an advil for their weeping surgical wound instead of saying, gee, well, let me get the RN to look at that... now that is completely unacceptable.

[mykidzmom]

there are several issues here. the first is the respect MDs have or don't for RNs. many doctor's don't care if you are an RN, MA, CNA--you are not an MD, so we're all alike (to him or her). without disrespecting the value of the UAPs, we MUST make sure the MDs understand what it means to be a nurse. this is a huge issue. the public often doesn't care. i work with one MA who knows her stuff very well and she often oversteps her scope, so she needs to be reigned in a bit. but if i had an issue--i would trust her. i also work with an RN who i wouldn't let water my plants, let alone touch me or even look at my lab results. but scope of practice is scope of practice. i can only pray the MA finishes nursing school quickly and the idiot nurse gets fired.....

the docs might not care. some of the public might not care. but WE MUST care when a non-RN comes off as one, overtly or otherwise. our profession depends on it. why hire an RN if you can hire an MA?

RNs may do many of the same tasks as MAs so to the casual observer, what is the difference? MAs are performing TASKS, collecting DATA. they may be individually brilliant, but they are not able to assess, give nursing diagnoses, plan or evaluate actual or potential human conditions. they are not trained to critically think (tho many are capable). when i see posts on MAs and CNAs and the various frustrations that come with working with them, it always seem to lead to the fact that most of what an RN does, and our most important work are not the tasks we do. it is our critical thinking and our understanding of disease, drugs, health and the response of patients to illness. we can do many of the same tasks. this is why docs think we are all alike. they need to know how we are different. patients need to know. and the UAPs need to know as well. many CNAs think nurses have it easy because all we have to do is (fill in the blank) while they have to (fill in the blank). they can't see the real work we do.

i would strongly suggest everyone check out the web site http://www.truthaboutnursing.org.

a lot of energy on that site is spent on media portrayals in nursing--which is crucial since people (and most docs are people too) get their notions of What A Nurse Is from t.v. and movies. but there is far more than that and they get into all of it.

if we nurses don't educate ourselves on what it means to be a nurse and how to properly advocate for our profession, then the world will think they don't need us. not when an MA can do it cheaper! and what kind of world would we have if there were no nurses?

by the way--we nursing and medical folk can be a sensitive bunch: when i referred to the posts dealing with difficulties working with MAs and CNAs i mean absolutely no disrespect. just like the happy stuff doesn't often make the news, in a forum like this, we are often more compelled to express our frustrations than our joys. there is room and need for all of us. many of us are brilliant, excellent, thorough caregivers within our scopes. some of us suck--RNs on down the line.

*my own little advocacy thing is to not use the word "nurse" very often. because a mother can nurse her sick child, a child can nurse a pet back to health, etc. nurse, as a verb can be viewed as a generic word that can conjer up loving care, which MAs CNAs and MDs can all do. I am proud to be a nurse. but i try to say RN whenever possible or Registered Nurse. just my own thing.

[redhotzz]

dont worry people, this was seen coming a long time ago. Nurses will replace primary care doctors which are only gonna go for specialize medicine, MA's will replace nurses and anyone will replace MA's. Its a cycle and its only the beginning.

Honest to God...I hope that I am dead before this happens. No joke...this would be a sad day and I'm a Boomer getting ready to probably be on the receiving end of this mess! #1. I'll be continuing to take good care of my body. and #2. I'll be keeping a 'stash' of pills for the time that the above comes to fruition.

[kids]

correct me if im wrong, but MAs can NOT give medical advice. you have no education on which to base it. you only carry a certification, no?

In some states MAs most certainly can do advice following established protocols. I've worked with them and have read the BoN's opinion letter on it myself (the WA BoN doesn't have a problem with it).

[nursel56]

]

My point is.......whenever a nurse or ma gives medical advice in a office the physician ALWAYS reviews and signs off on the chart

.

Sadly, I know of all too often where this is not the case.

[pagandeva2000, LPN]

some states this is a protected term, some states not, some states only regestered nurse....in those states that it is protected, this would be prosecutable offense.....you would need to check your state laws

In my state, it is not premissable to misrepresent yourself as well. But what I am curious about is how aggressively is this pursued? Since they are not under the auspice of the BON, how can a person be penalized?