ANA rec BSN vs ASN

SmilingBluEyes · Jun 14, 2005

My ADN program far from prepared us as "blue collar" workers itself. Actually, we were given classes in management, budgetary considerations in hospitals/ business, discussions were held regarding professional development and being part of political and professional organizations and we were very rigorously prepared to take CHARGE in units right out of school. (It was a rural- based program and therefore, we did "charge" units after an intense and fast-paced orientation at our local hospitals---rural nursing is not for the weak or faint of heart, that much I can attest).

I am telling you, we were not trained to be "technicians" or "assistants" to anyone, but were prepared and EDUCATED as responsible, fully self-accountable professional RN's. If there are ADN programs that differ, and prepare their RN's to be blue collar workers, I am unaware of them, quite frankly.

SmilingBluEyes · Jun 14, 2005

The reason there's a problem now with these companies is because these companies had extraordinary pension benefits d/t their unions. It's only a problem now because of GOP-led globalization -- these companies simply can't sell a car that can compete with imports, AND still pay out their generous benefits. This will eventually affect all industries -- even service and health. Globalization will force the middle class to lower their lifestyle to compete with the rest of the world. I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually have to give up OT pay and the minimum wage for any American to be able to keep a job. Unfortunately, no one in Washington seems to care -- a NAFTA like bill is about to pass (if it hasn't already) to expand free-trade throughout both American continents.

It is already affecting healthcare on a large scale.Those who think it can't happen to us are not keeping up with the current events of the USA and world economic scene.

grannynurse FNP · Jun 14, 2005

The reason there's a problem now with these companies is because these companies had extraordinary pension benefits d/t their unions. It's only a problem now because of GOP-led globalization -- these companies simply can't sell a car that can compete with imports, AND still pay out their generous benefits. This will eventually affect all industries -- even service and health. Globalization will force the middle class to lower their lifestyle to compete with the rest of the world. I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually have to give up OT pay and the minimum wage for any American to be able to keep a job. Unfortunately, no one in Washington seems to care -- a NAFTA like bill is about to pass (if it hasn't already) to expand free-trade throughout both American continents.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with your view regarding unions, United, GM and globalization be the causes of the downturn in retirement benefits. The major cuase, for western industry, has been their failure to put sufficent funds aside to pay for the promises they made to their workers. Workers who signed contracts, in good faith, and upheld their end of their agreements. Now, with the cost of manufacturing rising and the profit margins narrowing, and more workers retiring, they are caught in a bind. A bind, that they are now more then happy to pass on to the American taxpayers. And one which we are going to have to assume, unless we want to see many of our older workers being forced to continue to work and live in the poorhouse.

And I am one of those older workers. I live off of SSDI and an annuity. I am returning to grad school because I realize that my already marginal standard of living, will drop even more if I do not return to some type of gianful employment. And I had planned for my retirement, by investing yearly in an IRA. An IRA that was blown away bu a freak accident, which was not my fault. If I do not return to some type of employment, I will have to live off of an income that is approximately $1500 less a month then my Dad's was. And he was not even upper middle class. I see healthcare heading back to the way it was in the late 50s and early 60s, before the government stepped in. And is now attempting to step out.

Grannynburse :angryfire

fab4fan · Jun 15, 2005

The reason there's a problem now with these companies is because these companies had extraordinary pension benefits d/t their unions. It's only a problem now because of GOP-led globalization -- these companies simply can't sell a car that can compete with imports, AND still pay out their generous benefits. This will eventually affect all industries -- even service and health. Globalization will force the middle class to lower their lifestyle to compete with the rest of the world. I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually have to give up OT pay and the minimum wage for any American to be able to keep a job. Unfortunately, no one in Washington seems to care -- a NAFTA like bill is about to pass (if it hasn't already) to expand free-trade throughout both American continents.

Perhaps the reason they (domestic auto manufacturers) are having problems is they did not adapt to/anticipate market change. Add to that years of dismal performance of their cars compared with foreign cars.

GM, in particular, is very guilty of trying to ride on its past glory days. GM didn't seem to feel the need to change much in the way of design; a Buick today looks much like a Buick from the 80's, the 70's, the 60's, etc. GM also pinned much of its hopes on SUVs. Meanwhile, Japanese car makers were busy working on hybrids. Along comes a whopping increase in gas prices, and there's GM, caught with its pants down. Pardon me if I am less than sympathetic for GM to now cry it's poor because of health care costs.

Maybe health care costs are high, but why doesn't anyone look at the ridiculous salaries of top executives? Instead of cutting jobs and pilfering/evading pension plans for the average worker, how about eliminating the exorbitant bonuses that are paid to upper mgmt.? Exactly how many millions of dollars does one need? Why is it always the rank and file that has to take a sucker punch just because the execs. did a crappy job?

Let's see: You make crappy cars that are ugly and gas guzzlers to boot. And this is the factory line workers' fault because...? American auto manufacturers need a reality check. Many Americans lost faith in their ability to make a quality car; once you lose trust, it's awfully hard to get it back.

Sorry, this is a bit off the subject, but I for one am tired of hearing US business execs. try to palm off their mistakes onto their employees.

Mystery5 · Jun 15, 2005

I agree Fab 4! I love that movie 'Roger and Me', about Flint MI, by Micheal Moore. It points out very clearly the sins of the American Auto Industry...

SmilingBluEyes · Jun 15, 2005

Perhaps the reason they (domestic auto manufacturers) are having problems is they did not adapt to/anticipate market change. Add to that years of dismal performance of their cars compared with foreign cars.
GM, in particular, is very guilty of trying to ride on its past glory days. GM didn't seem to feel the need to change much in the way of design; a Buick today looks much like a Buick from the 80's, the 70's, the 60's, etc. GM also pinned much of its hopes on SUVs. Meanwhile, Japanese car makers were busy working on hybrids. Along comes a whopping increase in gas prices, and there's GM, caught with its pants down. Pardon me if I am less than sympathetic for GM to now cry it's poor because of health care costs.
Maybe health care costs are high, but why doesn't anyone look at the ridiculous salaries of top executives? Instead of cutting jobs and pilfering/evading pension plans for the average worker, how about eliminating the exorbitant bonuses that are paid to upper mgmt.? Exactly how many millions of dollars does one need? Why is it always the rank and file that has to take a sucker punch just because the execs. did a crappy job?
Let's see: You make crappy cars that are ugly and gas guzzlers to boot. And this is the factory line workers' fault because...? American auto manufacturers need a reality check. Many Americans lost faith in their ability to make a quality car; once you lose trust, it's awfully hard to get it back.
Sorry, this is a bit off the subject, but I for one am tired of hearing US business execs. try to palm off their mistakes onto their employees.

Not so off-topic. I find a great parallel between the auto industry and healthcare today. They spend millions in USD on useless freaking computer charting systems (my hospital's is an 80s type DOS system that is horrible). They spend boooocoooo bucks on making rooms fancier, much more amenities than are unnecessary, on systems to "track" nurses to make sure they are not "wasting time" where they don't belong, and on it goes ad infinitum. What good is a fancy room or hospital if staffing is circling the drain????

Now, to pay for all this, we are being forced to do more and more and more with less and less and less. Meanwhile, they dress up the entry ways of hospitals to look like palaces or the Hilton to attact patient/consumers----but what is their staffing like? JUST WHO is caring for them? Places everywhere are salivating to replace licensed nurses with UAPs and med techs......

Oh yes, They pay execs/CEOs obscene bonuses for each dollar saved (translated: less working, usable equipment, nurses and ancillary staff). The ones paying? Certainly NOT the administrators/CEO's....noooooo...that would be the patients and staff of such places. Just where is all the money going? ALL to indigent care? Nope. Take a closer look, if you dare.

Mystery5 · Jun 15, 2005

Not so off-topic. I find a great parallel between the auto industry and healthcare today. We are being forced to do more and more and more with less. Meanwhile, they dress up the entry ways of hospitals to look like palaces or the Hilton to attact patient/consumers. They pay execs/CEOs obscene bonuses for each dollar saved (translate: less working equipment, nurses and ancillary staff). The ones paying? Certainly NOT the adminstrators/CEO's....noooooo...that would be the patients and staff of such places. Just where is all the money going? ALL to indigent care? Nope. Take a closer look, if you dare.

That very phenominon is happening as we speak at Yakima Regional (Formerly Providence Yakima) Southern chain bought them, big cosmetic makeover, huge cuts in personel and jump in pt/nurse ratio. I used to work there and talk weekly to a good friend who still does...:uhoh21:

TypicalFish · Jun 15, 2005

First of all neither of these topics are new issues.
This is straight out of a paper I just wrote on the subject...
Supporters of the Bachelor's program (BSN) as entry into practice have entirely different viewpoints than those of the ADN supporters. In an ADN program, nurses are trained along side of pharmacy technicians, physical therapy assistants, nurse's aides, and other blue-collar professions. Nursing is not a blue-collar profession, but is still viewed by members of the public as such.

I am not sure what ADN program you are talking about because the one I attended had no technicians, assisitants, aides, or other "blue-collar" professions (why do I have the mental image of moonshadow making a face like she smells something bad as she wrote this) In my ADN program, we were educated as nurses-not ADNs vs BSN but nurses. The head of our program was the Pres. of the BON in our state-we have the highest NCLEX passing rate in our entire state-above University of Maryland, John Hopkins, Towson, etc-And the majority of us pass in 75 questions-we are obviously well educated.

I have also yet to meet a person who thinks of nursing as a blue collar profession; BTW what is wrong with a "blue-collar" profession? Is this how you classify your patients (Eww-I have to care for that obviously stupid and low class blue collar guy")-any comments you make in following posts are mootbecause you really state how you feel in this paragragh; that ADN's are low, low, low on the nursing food chain. AND also BTW, where would nurses be without the support of the "lowly" tech, aide and assistant? Your classism is showing....

BamaBound2bRN · Jun 15, 2005

I am amazed at the number of educated nurses here who are clueless about politics. In case anyone was asleep during the past year......Mike Moore was proven to be a liar, John Kerry was not a war hero, and NAFTA has put NO ONE out of work. All of this socialist bleeding heart whinning makes me want to move to Canada......except their health care system is 1000% worst than our poorest system..................come to your senses folks, if the Dems get their way we would all be forced to work when and where they want us to and at the job and wage they dictate.

goingCOASTAL · Jun 15, 2005

I am amazed at the number of educated nurses here who are clueless about politics. In case anyone was asleep during the past year......Mike Moore was proven to be a liar, John Kerry was not a war hero, and NAFTA has put NO ONE out of work. All of this socialist bleeding heart whinning makes me want to move to Canada......except their health care system is 1000% worst than our poorest system..................come to your senses folks, if the Dems get their way we would all be forced to work when and where they want us to and at the job and wage they dictate.

Well, until you said "NAFTA has put NO ONE out of work," I thought you had an opinion. Sorry, but since some of us don't take our talking points from Rush Limbaugh, we weren't aware that all of our manufacturing jobs actually stayed here in America! Will someone please tell the auto-workers that they're not really unemployed! (Oh, wait -- you're right -- since they now work P/T at Wal-Mart, they never really lost their job).

goingCOASTAL · Jun 15, 2005

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with your view regarding unions, United, GM and globalization be the causes of the downturn in retirement benefits. The major cuase, for western industry, has been their failure to put sufficent funds aside to pay for the promises they made to their workers. Workers who signed contracts, in good faith, and upheld their end of their agreements. Now, with the cost of manufacturing rising and the profit margins narrowing, and more workers retiring, they are caught in a bind. A bind, that they are now more then happy to pass on to the American taxpayers. And one which we are going to have to assume, unless we want to see many of our older workers being forced to continue to work and live in the poorhouse.
And I am one of those older workers. I live off of SSDI and an annuity. I am returning to grad school because I realize that my already marginal standard of living, will drop even more if I do not return to some type of gianful employment. And I had planned for my retirement, by investing yearly in an IRA. An IRA that was blown away bu a freak accident, which was not my fault. If I do not return to some type of employment, I will have to live off of an income that is approximately $1500 less a month then my Dad's was. And he was not even upper middle class. I see healthcare heading back to the way it was in the late 50s and early 60s, before the government stepped in. And is now attempting to step out.
Grannynburse :angryfire

I think my post may have incorrectly implied that I blame unions for this at all. I do not. Unions DID, however, force those industries to provide (and promise to provide) those benefits they can no longer afford to pay for. The "fault" of this belongs to this sense of global "free trade" -- and companies that pay upwards of $100,000 or more a year in wages, pensions and benefits cannot compete with workers in Asia who cost a few hundred or a few thousand a year. People just aren't going to buy the more expensive car. I seriously doubt that either GM or Ford will be around in the next 10-20 years, because they -- like the rest of the US corporate culture -- ignorantly thought that we'd all prosper in an open, world-wide marketplace. We can't. Our nation's money is hemorrhaging out of the country due to cheap imports that Washington refuses to do anything about. Unionized labor can only work in a closed system -- when it's open "worldwide," things change. As long as someone somewhere is willing to work for table scraps, then better wages, benefits, pensions, and benefits are a thing of the past. Believe me, if this continues -- it will ALL be on the table: minimum wage, OSHA, OT laws, etc. Nothing is sacred in the new global marketplace.

It's already curtains for US manufacturing, and the outsourcing of jobs (some professional) and the in-sourcing of cheaper labor is beginning to threaten other industries, particularly the service industry. Personally, I'm in my mid-thirties, and I don't think "retirement" will be possible for my generation unless we get a grip on foreign imports (through import taxes) and slow down industry-specific immigration.

fab4fan · Jun 15, 2005

I am amazed at the number of educated nurses here who are clueless about politics. In case anyone was asleep during the past year......Mike Moore was proven to be a liar, John Kerry was not a war hero, and NAFTA has put NO ONE out of work. All of this socialist bleeding heart whinning makes me want to move to Canada......except their health care system is 1000% worst than our poorest system..................come to your senses folks, if the Dems get their way we would all be forced to work when and where they want us to and at the job and wage they dictate.

Since you are not a full-fledged RN yet (are you even a student?) your opinion, which you do have a right to express, isn't going to hold a lot of weight with nurses who are out there working and dealing with the realities of today's health care system.

I'm not sure what the ad hominem attacks on John Kerry have to do with the topic, but you would be well advised to do a little research before making such a claim, instead of getting your info from people with obvious negative bias toward Mr. Kerry. In fact, his actual record, as well as explicit details that debunk the claims you and others have made can readily be found on sites like snopes.com.

I have absolutely no idea what on earth your last sentence is supposed to mean, outside of one more rant against a political party you disagree with.

I hope your nursing program includes some courses on how to write coherently. Whatever message you had was lost in the dreck of spurious claims and outright meaningless theatrics.