ANA rec BSN vs ASN

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I've been thinking about this lately; When we were in school, the head of program was very passionate about nurses joining the ANA-something like less than 5% of all nurses are members, and if we all joined "what a voice we would have" in politics and policy. I do plan to get to a BSN-eventually, maybe-but I am 42 with three teens and their college looming-so who knows? I really agree with this-we need to use our numbers for power. I understand that raising the level of education might raise the overall respect and pay-but most patients don't know what degree you have-they judge you by your care and outcomes. But, I also keep thinking-"Why should I support a group who basically thinks that that I am too underqualified and undereducated to be a good nurse?" Because all rhetoric about being pro-nurse aside, that's what they mean..

What do you think?

I agree with a previous comment that the ANA is all about promoting nursing professionalism. Obviously, this is more easily achieved at universities versus community colleges.

Having said that, I can say I nearly loathe the ANA as I find it difficult to comprehend how much they charge for the microscopic ANA Nusing Code of Ethics publication.

Why? I have worked with extremely unprofessional BSNs (and ADN's) Geez, some of the most unprofessional people I have worked with have been doctors, and they surely didn't go to community college. More often than not professionalism is very close to a personality trait...

I would love to understand your reasoning behind your generalization.

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Why? I have worked with extremely unprofessional BSNs (and ADN's) Geez, some of the most unprofessional people I have worked with have been doctors, and they surely didn't go to community college. More often than not professionalism is very close to a personality trait...

I would love to understand your reasoning behind your generalization.

Try to look at it from a different perspective as it's very straight forward. Universities receive research grants which are spent to advance knowledge within a profession. Community Colleges are typically known as teaching schools.

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With such dissention within the ranks of nurses and such a low membership is it any wonder they have no real power to actually accomplish anything?

You say "get out of the way", and who is to follow. Who is waiting in the wings to solve anything?

With no real voice to represent us is it any wonder in your career of 10 years nothing has changed much in the profression. With no real concensus...because for every proposal on how to deal with a problem in nursing there is lots of resistance. Take for example those who say to unionize. Take for example those who say raise the salary. Take for example those who say pass laws for better ratios. Take for example those who want more schools. Every step is met with a lack of cohesiveness and support. Or at the very least lack of a clear plan on how to carry it out.

Not that I have any answers either. But I hardly blame the ANA. At least they are trying, at least they take a stand on certain issues, knowing it may not please everyone.

Thank you-- As a student and I openly admit that I'm a student before folks start the " oh- you don't get a say or you don't know" I have been on this board for approx 3 year now as I got my prereqs and now am finishing an program- I have seen the same tired topics get scathing remarks from people quick to say

I don't want things to change,

education doesn't make you better than me,

I don't wanna go back to school,

I have kids,

I don't wanna hear nursing theories"

ANA doesn't do anything for me, I'm not joining

yet then it's "we're professionals, we demand respect and more autonomy and this and that. NO a degree doesn't GUARANTEE you will behave professionally but. .. . is there ANY common ground in nursing? Where should nursing lay its root- at whatever is most convenient for each individual? Maybe the reason it is perceived as less professional is because with no standards- people feel anyone can be a nurse. But this is so crabs in a barrel and some days I really don't know what I've gotten myself into. Why has the ADN/BSN been talked about for 30 years- because nurses don't agree on anything except that "that won't work" My contemporary nursing issues teacher said approx 125K nurses are in the ANA but for darn sure if there was a benefit to come from ANA-- all 2.7 million of you would want a piece and be so sue-happy if you didn't get it. I haven't even started and . .. . argh some days its like- why didn't I go to PA school?

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No professional standards??? I disagree with that statement, Pride of July. I think nursing has plenty of them. Nursing is well respected, nurses are mostly very good, and nursing is a great profession with a long and illustrious tradition, with high standards.

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Try to look at it from a different perspective as it's very straight forward. Universities receive research grants which are spent to advance knowledge within a profession. Community Colleges are typically known as teaching schools.

I completely understand that some universities get reasearch grants "to advance knowledge of a profession." How on earth does this corellate to the professional behavior of it's graduates-Are you telling me that someone with naturally poor professional behavior will be transformed because they attended a university vs. a community college? And are you telling me that someone with a high degree of professionalism will be "ruined" by attending community college? The amount of research that a university does about a profession is not necessarily a marker of how professional it's graduates act within their chosen profession. I am not discounting to higher degree of education received at a university, but being well-educated does not equate a high degree of professionalism. You failed to make your "straightforward" case. You are confusing education with behavior. They are not necessarily the same thing.

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Research grants! You know how much B.S. is involved in obtaining funding, doing a bunch of fluff research from a purely acedemic POV, with no practical value whatsoever? Sorry, but acedemia is full of a lot of hot air these days.

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I completely understand that some universities get reasearch grants "to advance knowledge of a profession." How on earth does this corellate to the professional behavior of it's graduates-Are you telling me that someone with naturally poor professional behavior will be transformed because they attended a university vs. a community college? And are you telling me that someone with a high degree of professionalism will be "ruined" by attending community college? The amount of research that a university does about a profession is not necessarily a marker of how professional it's graduates act within their chosen profession. I am not discounting to higher degree of education received at a university, but being well-educated does not equate a high degree of professionalism. You failed to make your "straightforward" case. You are confusing education with behavior. They are not necessarily the same thing.

These are silly points you're raising. Obviously education and behavior are not the same thing. Note that I never peeped a word about behavior. I suspect you have an axe to grind here. :rolleyes:

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Research grants! You know how much B.S. is involved in obtaining funding, doing a bunch of fluff research from a purely acedemic POV, with no practical value whatsoever? Sorry, but acedemia is full of a lot of hot air these days.

Ah yep, acedemia aint wut it youse to be. :chuckle

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Specializes in Med-Surg.

Since nursing isn't always considered a "profression". Let me use pharmacy as an example. A university degree (not an associates degree) graduates a profressional Pharmacist.

Does this mean he is going to "act profressional". No it just means he is a profressional.

A waitress or ditch digger can act unprofessionally and professionally. But they aren't members of a profession.

This is what ANA and educators are meaning when talk about professionalism. (Not behavior.) Or at least that's my take on it.

Many people, could care less if nursing is considered a profession or not. That's a whole other debate. And it gets very ugly when BSN say they are professional (in degree and name only, not behavior) and those without BSNs aren't "professionals". :)

Many people think of all jobs as professions, such as plumbers, LPNs, CNAs, ditch diggers. Others think of only 4-year or beyond degreed people as members of a profession.

Am I making sense? Profresionalism and the definition of a profession and professional behavior are apples and oranges.

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Specializes in Telemetry, Med/Surg.

On professionalism and organizations (and I promise not to say NAFTA -- well, okay, not anymore after that time! LOL!):

There is a "vein" of opinion here that believes that if you criticize the ANA, then you are against organization and professionalism among nurses. It does sound alot like the "with us or against us" rhetoric we've heard lately -- but I promise not to go political in this thread.

There are organizations among nursing -- big and small, and a few medium sized -- many have fought for change and nursing promotion. Dollar for dollar, and pound for pound, the ANA seems large, pompous, and ineffective. Some of its major agenda items (like BSN requirements for entry level) have failed miserably -- lots of talk, but no action. Where anything associated with the ANA has been successful, it has been the state associations fighting on their own turf for their own state-specific problems. The national organization, though, has failed miserably in creating nationwide standards.

Perhaps BSN-only is a future important goal -- I really don't have an opinion on it. If this is an important priority, can anyone tell me why the only state they've got it passed in is North Dakota? We can talk about positions all day long -- but, lets face facts -- why is the ANA comparitively ineffective to affect change compared to smaller state groups, or niche organizations? I'd like to see some supportive links, too, that aren't published by the ANA themselves (what group doesn't herald their own activities?).

I believe that one problem with the group has been their approach. In too many areas of nursing, their is a great deal of arrogance and pompous behavior -- among academia, management, etc. Heck, even certain specialties orgs can't stand each other. Somehow, this arrogance has infected the ANA. Even in approaching this issue of BSN-entry, it could have been approached differently -- without making everyone who has less seem like a bunch of idiots, which is exactly how the ANA, and nursing academia has approached this matter. It's one thing to promote an idea of advancement, and another entirely to create a nurse "caste" system -- which exists in the minds of the "professionals," but wonderfully, not usually at the bedside.

I work with BSNs and even an occasional MSN at the bedside -- and what's wonderful is that when we're working together, we're all nurses . . . and that's that. That seems to stop, though, when you're talking to nurse instructors, etc., in the community (or when they're in the hospital sick), and attempts are made to belittle anyone who doesn't match their education and expertise.

I can imagine myself supporting advanced standards for entry-level nursing -- but you won't find me joining any organization promoting this idea as long as the arrogance continues.

I've argued this on several nursing forums in the past, and it's funny -- I've never heard a response explaining, or even apologizing for the elitist attitudes concerning this matter. It's as if the attempts at intimidation are appropriate, and that the rest of us should grovel until we've attained the upper-levels ourselves. Sorry -- I deal and have to accept a certain amount of BS daily from MDs and administrators, I'm not going to take it from a voluntary organization who can't -- for the life of them -- understand why I won't send them money.

It isn't our fault that the ANA doesn't have widespread support.

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Specializes in Med-Surg.
I've argued this on several nursing forums in the past, and it's funny -- I've never heard a response explaining, or even apologizing for the elitist attitudes concerning this matter.

Maybe becuase your experience is different. I've only come across one elitist person, and that wasn't in school.

My instructor in my BSN course "concepts of professional nursing" was not arrogant or elitist when advocating nursing advance itself as a profression. Nor were my ADN MSN-prepared instructors when they were encouraging us to advance education to the BSN level after graduation.

Even on this message board, which is the only nursing board I go to, the elistist arrogant attitude of a few, compared to the overwhelming opposite attitude, isn't enough to phase me. Granted one or two elisted attitudes can spark a thread that goes on and on and on and on.

Interesting how two realities can be so different. :)

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Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

I have to agree, true arrogance is the exception here rather the rule. A few bad apples do stand out and make for sensational debate, dont' they?

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