ANA rec BSN vs ASN

[TypicalFish]

I've been thinking about this lately; When we were in school, the head of program was very passionate about nurses joining the ANA-something like less than 5% of all nurses are members, and if we all joined "what a voice we would have" in politics and policy. I do plan to get to a BSN-eventually, maybe-but I am 42 with three teens and their college looming-so who knows? I really agree with this-we need to use our numbers for power. I understand that raising the level of education might raise the overall respect and pay-but most patients don't know what degree you have-they judge you by your care and outcomes. But, I also keep thinking-"Why should I support a group who basically thinks that that I am too underqualified and undereducated to be a good nurse?" Because all rhetoric about being pro-nurse aside, that's what they mean..

What do you think?

[moonshadeau, ADN, BSN, MSN, RN, APN, NP, CNS]

First of all neither of these topics are new issues.

ANA is NOT a union. ANA is the umbrella organization that the state nurse's associations fall under. Not all states are a member of ANA or they have split off into labor arms of AFL-CIO. Yes, I will agree that ANA does have a political agenda.

The whole BSN as entry into practice is not just a recommendation from ANA. The concept is to promote PROFESSIONALISM. (NOW--keep in mind I am neither for or against, just setting out the arguements behind the matter).

This is straight out of a paper I just wrote on the subject...

Supporters of the Bachelor's program (BSN) as entry into practice have entirely different viewpoints than those of the ADN supporters. In an ADN program, nurses are trained along side of pharmacy technicians, physical therapy assistants, nurse's aides, and other blue-collar professions. Nursing is not a blue-collar profession, but is still viewed by members of the public as such. By changing the minimum education requirements, it is a method of transforming the public image of nurses as professionals. Another advantage of requiring nurses' to be BSN prepared is the liberal arts component of the program. The liberal arts aspect allows the RN to incorporate other disciplines into practice. The ability to have the opportunity to "see the bigger picture" is gained by the liberal arts program.

Some support the belief that the entry into practice should be at the master's level for nursing (MSN). Nearly all the professionals the nurse come into contact with on a daily basis at work are required to have be master's prepared in their profession or better. The social worker, physical therapist, pharmacist, and occupational therapists are required to have a master's degree to practice. Why is the individual who spends the majority of the time with the patient, the least educated individual?

California has an intitiative to be BSN by 2010. North Dakota is already a BSN state. I think that if someone expects me to have more eduation, they had better be ready to fork out the scholarships and grants it to cover the cost.

[SmilingBluEyes]

First of all neither of these topics are new issues.

ANA is NOT a union. ANA is the umbrella organization that the state nurse's associations fall under. Not all states are a member of ANA or they have split off into labor arms of AFL-CIO. Yes, I will agree that ANA does have a political agenda.

The whole BSN as entry into practice is not just a recommendation from ANA. The concept is to promote PROFESSIONALISM. (NOW--keep in mind I am neither for or against, just setting out the arguements behind the matter).

This is straight out of a paper I just wrote on the subject...

Supporters of the Bachelor's program (BSN) as entry into practice have entirely different viewpoints than those of the ADN supporters. In an ADN program, nurses are trained along side of pharmacy technicians, physical therapy assistants, nurse's aides, and other blue-collar professions. Nursing is not a blue-collar profession, but is still viewed by members of the public as such. By changing the minimum education requirements, it is a method of transforming the public image of nurses as professionals. Another advantage of requiring nurses' to be BSN prepared is the liberal arts component of the program. The liberal arts aspect allows the RN to incorporate other disciplines into practice. The ability to have the opportunity to "see the bigger picture" is gained by the liberal arts program.

Some support the belief that the entry into practice should be at the master's level for nursing (MSN). Nearly all the professionals the nurse come into contact with on a daily basis at work are required to have be master's prepared in their profession or better. The social worker, physical therapist, pharmacist, and occupational therapists are required to have a master's degree to practice. Why is the individual who spends the majority of the time with the patient, the least educated individual?

California has an intitiative to be BSN by 2010. North Dakota is already a BSN state. I think that if someone expects me to have more eduation, they had better be ready to fork out the scholarships and grants it to cover the cost.

Actually I have been told ND repealed their "all BSN" requirement recently. Must be hard to find enough nurses who all have BSN or higher, even in a relatively unpopulated state, I am guessing.

And, I would love to pursue a liberal arts degree, (A BA in fine arts and foreign lauguages would be my cup of tea)------ I find the BSN is not what I seek. If what you say is true and we would benefit from more liberal arts and broader backgrounds, then, when will they acknowledge and appreciate baccalaureate or higher degrees from other disciplines? (coupled with an AD these people are often much-better-educated than the standard generic BSN). IF they would do that, it would help us all in the LONG run. And that IS what we are concerned with, right, the future of nursing????

[fab4fan]

I totally agree, Deb.

I would be more than willing to go back to school and get a BA, but that degree is not considered "enough" by the ANA, and employers do not consider it an adequate alternative to a BSN.

After 20y in nursing (and, gasp, believe it or not, some of it in mgmt., even with "just a diploma"), the last thing I need to do is repeat clinical time to satisfy a BSN. I mean, come on! I don't care if the only clinical required is community health. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.

I also don't want to waste my time learning about nursing theorists, especially some of the ones that are a bit "out there." What would really help me would be to be able to finish the degree in Spanish I was working on, but as I said, it would ultimately be a waste of $$ because it "doesn't count."

The premise that the liberal arts component makes the BSN a better nurse only works if you assume that diploma/ADNs lack the inquisitiveness to learn about art, literature, foreign languages, etc. on their own. Does the ANA really think we are that stupid? Apparently so.

The truth is that new nurses (diploma/ADN/BSN) are too busy focusing on the realities of being a graduate nurse. Learning about liberal arts is well and good, but it doesn't help the new nurse with learning how to manage a full pt. load, or how to become proficient in procedures/medication admin. (Spare me the argument that a monkey can be trained to do what nurses do.)

The ANA has been spouting this palaver since the mid-60s. Instead of marginalizing a large group of nurses (while at the same time, being oh,too happy to take $$ from diploma/ADNs for dues) they ought to be focusing on what on earth we all are going to do when the shortage of nurses coincides with baby boomers needing more health care.

I'm not even going to touch the ANA's complete exclusion of LPNs; there are only so many windmills one can tilt after, you know?

[Mystery5]

Right on FAB 4! Well and accurately stated!

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Good post Fab.

(There are a lot of nurse managers and supervisors that are ADN graduates. One nurse who was doing clinicals at local hospital stated she had a hard time finding someone in management that had a BSN that she could shadow for a day.)

I don't think the clinicals are floor nursing related in RN to BSN programs. (The one I'm in has no clinicals but for a management one at the end, I'm not sure how many hours, but not much. The program considered we are already nurses with clinical experience). I work with a nurse who is in an RN to BSN program that requires 120 hours of management clinicals and 120 in public health. I say YUK to that, but at least it's components that aren't part of local ADN programs. Also some have those components built in, just not at that number of hours.

My contention is still that when I hear "The entry level to RN practice should be the BSN", I'm not hearing "BSNs aren't good enough to be nurses".

I don't think BSNs should be forced on anybody.

[MIA-RN1, RN]

The final blow, however was when AJN took a thread of this site and blew it out of proportion for sensational article-writing in their journal. I really took strong exception to that. I did not renew it.

I am sorry to jump in here but I am wondering about this. Do you know which issue this was in? I get several nursing mags and of them all, AJN has been my least favorite and I would like to read what this is about.

[SmilingBluEyes]

It was their May issue, I believe. There was a thread addressing the comment. It had to do with the subject of euthansia, and death penalties etc. A few off-color, off-the-cuff (however ill-advised) remarks were blown up to make nurses look REALLY bad in this area, IMO.

[SmilingBluEyes]

I totally agree, Deb.

I would be more than willing to go back to school and get a BA, but that degree is not considered "enough" by the ANA, and employers do not consider it an adequate alternative to a BSN.

After 20y in nursing (and, gasp, believe it or not, some of it in mgmt., even with "just a diploma"), the last thing I need to do is repeat clinical time to satisfy a BSN. I mean, come on! I don't care if the only clinical required is community health. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.

I also don't want to waste my time learning about nursing theorists, especially some of the ones that are a bit "out there." What would really help me would be to be able to finish the degree in Spanish I was working on, but as I said, it would ultimately be a waste of $$ because it "doesn't count."

The premise that the liberal arts component makes the BSN a better nurse only works if you assume that diploma/ADNs lack the inquisitiveness to learn about art, literature, foreign languages, etc. on their own. Does the ANA really think we are that stupid? Apparently so.

The truth is that new nurses (diploma/ADN/BSN) are too busy focusing on the realities of being a graduate nurse. Learning about liberal arts is well and good, but it doesn't help the new nurse with learning how to manage a full pt. load, or how to become proficient in procedures/medication admin. (Spare me the argument that a monkey can be trained to do what nurses do.)

The ANA has been spouting this palaver since the mid-60s. Instead of marginalizing a large group of nurses (while at the same time, being oh,too happy to take $$ from diploma/ADNs for dues) they ought to be focusing on what on earth we all are going to do when the shortage of nurses coincides with baby boomers needing more health care.

I'm not even going to touch the ANA's complete exclusion of LPNs; there are only so many windmills one can tilt after, you know?

AMEN, therefore ANA does NOT get my money.

[moonshadeau, ADN, BSN, MSN, RN, APN, NP, CNS]

Actually I have been told ND repealed their "all BSN" requirement recently. Must be hard to find enough nurses who all have BSN or higher, even in a relatively unpopulated state, I am guessing.

And, I would love to pursue a liberal arts degree, (A BA in fine arts and foreign lauguages would be my cup of tea)------ I find the BSN is not what I seek. If what you say is true and we would benefit from more liberal arts and broader backgrounds, then, when will they acknowledge and appreciate baccalaureate or higher degrees from other disciplines? (coupled with an AD these people are often much-better-educated than the standard generic BSN). IF they would do that, it would help us all in the LONG run. And that IS what we are concerned with, right, the future of nursing????

I agree Deb completely. In fact the last bits of my paper I discuss that there is really little benefit to obtaining a BSN completion unless one is looking to better themselves in position or for further education. I have researcht hat backs that little tidbit up.

This was my concluding paragraph. Financial issues are not taken into account in this scenario though.

In my opinion, there is room for the ADN, BSN, and MSN nurses in the profession . Education for a degree should be at least a five-year program. The first two years of a clinical track are taken in an ADN program. After completion, the nurse will serve in a role similar to a nurse intern under the supervision of a prepared BSN nurse. This role will last for one year in order for the ADN to gain experience at the bedside to integrate into the next stage of entering the second level. The ADN nurse will enroll in a two-year BSN program at this time. The ADN will continue to work in the role of 'intern' until completion of the BSN. At which time, the nurse will be able to assume full duties of a professional Registered Nurse .

Now my point was not to make ADN's serve under BSN's, but rather focus on the fact that an ADN with experience taking a BSN completion course has the knowledge and understanding to appreciate the liberal arts component. And yes, I do believe that an ADN that completes a RN-BSN is a better nurse.

Ok, I will stop being opinionated now.

[SmilingBluEyes]

I believe an ADN or diploma nurse who has any baccalaureate-level education (or higher) is a better nurse, not necessarily just BSN. I have known quite a few 2nd career ADN's who are excellent nurses, both at the beside and even in management. I think we need to look at a bigger picture than BSN. BSN programs are not so readily accessible to so many----and lots of them repeat information we already had or add components we can live without, frankly.

But that is only my opinion. I appreciate hearing yours, too Moonshadeau. :)

[goingCOASTAL]

However, one only needs to look at companies like United, GM, Monsanto/Solutia, and other heavy union companies and the plight of their pension plans to see that unions for the most part are only concerned with collecting dues.

The reason there's a problem now with these companies is because these companies had extraordinary pension benefits d/t their unions. It's only a problem now because of GOP-led globalization -- these companies simply can't sell a car that can compete with imports, AND still pay out their generous benefits. This will eventually affect all industries -- even service and health. Globalization will force the middle class to lower their lifestyle to compete with the rest of the world. I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually have to give up OT pay and the minimum wage for any American to be able to keep a job. Unfortunately, no one in Washington seems to care -- a NAFTA like bill is about to pass (if it hasn't already) to expand free-trade throughout both American continents.

[goingCOASTAL]

In an ADN program, nurses are trained along side of pharmacy technicians, physical therapy assistants, nurse's aides, and other blue-collar professions. Nursing is not a blue-collar profession, but is still viewed by members of the public as such.

I've always thought that nurses were viewed on the same par as teachers, police officers, firemen, etc. -- I always thought we were part of that "unsung heroes" group.

I proudly earned my ADN at a four-year university where our nursing department FOUGHT the university to keep the program from getting split off and moved to the "technical institute" across the street. For our pre-requisites, we sat with students in pre-med, pre-pharm students, and other biology, chemistry majors who were there for their BAs and BS's. There were no auto-mechanics in our class (not knocking 'em, though!)

The above "ADN experience" in education was not representative of my own ADN education experience.