About a month ago, as I was doing my final check on things and getting ready to head home, one of the drs I regularly work with approached me and asked if i wanted to go out for dinner or drinks sometime. I made a joke about my husband probably not appreciating that and he said 'Maybe another time.'. Fast forward a few weeks, and as I'm walking in in the morning he asks if I'm free that night. I politely decline. It has now been about a month and it has escalated to him putting his arm around my shoulder, to him adjusting the card conveniently over my breast to just today him standing behind me as i was bending over and putting his hands on my hips and pulling me against him. I have told him multiple times now that I'm not interested, and would prefer if our relationship was nothing but professional but every time he dismisses me.
My question is, how do I deal with this? I've tried talking to the higher-ups but I was told that I should get over it. This dr has been working here for much longer than me, and is well respected, there is little chance anyone here would take my side over his.
Should I do something, or am I over reacting and should just ignore it?
You need to start keeping a log with dates. times and actions so you have some kind of proof. Then you need to go to HR and say that you plan to file a sexual Harassment lawsuit if it continues to happen. I am not sure what the laws are in Canada . But there must be some recourse for you. At my facility we have to take a sexual harassment training every two years.
Why only if it continues to happen? The "higher ups" had their chance and advised the OP to buzz off. I would not be so generous - I say go straight for the jugular and follow through with the suit.
Why only if it continues to happen? The "higher ups" had their chance and advised the OP to buzz off. I would not be so generous - I say go straight for the jugular and follow through with the suit.
This!!! It's not enough for him to stop; he has sexually assaulted her, plus sexually harassed her many more times. If he was a child molester or a rapist, would it be enough that they stop? Of course not. He has already committed the acts told us by the OP, and should face the consequences.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Who are you to "question her response?"
I am among the people invited to question her response when it was posted to a public discussion board.
And what is wrong with her response?
Isn't it self evident that her response was inadequate as evidenced by it escalating?
Just because she didn't kick him where it hurts does not mean that she is responsible for what happened.
The doctor is responsible for his actions.
Again, people react differently under stressful circumstances due to past trauma, socialization, safety concerns, etc. There is no right or wrong way.
When I was about 12 years old I moved to a new town. In short order a group of bullies started waiting for my little sister and I on our walk home from school. They beat me up a couple times and stole from my little sister. So one Sunday I took an ax handle out of the barn and hid it along our rout home from school, near where the group of boys waited for us. On Monday they again were waiting for us but this time I beat the hell out of them with the ax handle. Problem solved. Never had an issue with bullies again and my little sister was never bothered again. Problem solved. Its about personal responsibility and self care.
If it were my daughter in the situation of the OP, the fact that it has been an ongoing situation would indicate to me that it was time for me to provide further training and education to my daughter so give her the skills to deal with this problem. She will need them because I won't be there to deal with these kinds of men her whole life.
I am among the people invited to question her response when it was posted to a public discussion board.
Isn't it self evident that her response was inadequate as evidenced by it escalating?
The doctor is responsible for his actions.
When I was about 12 years old I moved to a new town. In short order a group of bullies started waiting for my little sister and I on our walk home from school. They beat me up a couple times and stole from my little sister. So one Sunday I took an ax handle out of the barn and hid it along our rout home from school, near where the group of boys waited for us. On Monday they again were waiting for us but this time I beat the hell out of them with the ax handle. Problem solved. Never had an issue with bullies again and my little sister was never bothered again. Problem solved. Its about personal responsibility and self care.
If it were my daughter in the situation of the OP, the fact that it has been an ongoing situation would indicate to me that it was time for me to provide further training and education to my daughter so give her the skills to deal with this problem. She will need them because I won't be there to deal with these kinds of men her whole life.
And very unfortunately, if one were to physically fight back in this day and age, they would get in just as much if not more hot water than the perpetrator.
There are many, many places of education, employment, wherever that have zero tolerance programs. Zero tolerance is just a fancy way of saying "let us handle it" as if one takes matters into their own hands, they would be subject to as much "punishment" as the person who started all this to begin with. And if you were to beat a kid with an axe handle today, you would most likely end up with a criminal record, and your parents sued for injuries that you gave their special snowflake.
It is so easy to say "I'd yell, I'd kick his butt, I'd punch him...." but the fact remains that you have not a clue what you would do if put in that situation, unless you WERE in that situation.
And I will say that most all of the hours of facility continuing education we all have to take yearly, one of the units is regarding sexual harassment in the workplace. And there is a little part in the unit that is specific to the first obligation of the employee being harassed is to firmly tell the person to stop. (and if that doesn't happen, go to step 2...) This, to me, is a dated process and doesn't ensure any sort of employee safety. It does ensure, however, that a facility can employ the worst process and somehow, it is not their fault.
It is seemingly also the way that facilities can "get ya" and refrain from full responsibility if a nurse (or whomever) doesn't follow the policy to a "T". After all, you took the education unit--you passed the little test at the end....you should know this stuff!! (
Bottom line is that if the MD in question is a money maker, they will do whatever it takes to have him continue to make money for them. The untouchables employ all sorts of holier than thou tactics, as they are most usually spoiled children that have every whim accounted for.
Then that leads us back to the OP. Who just wants to be left alone. And in order to make that happen, a meeting is occurring. That the OP would do herself justice to not go in alone. Because the goal is to pamper the MD, and be sure that the OP is not going to run her mouth.
If it were my daughter in the situation of the OP, the fact that it has been an ongoing situation would indicate to me that it was time for me to provide further training and education to my daughter so give her the skills to deal with this problem. She will need them because I won't be there to deal with these kinds of men her whole life.
What would be even better is if men were taught not to do this to anyone and held responsible when they do, thus severely reducing the need to give women 'skills to deal with' them.
The two of you are in my opinion absolutely correct.
It always surprises me when people assume that everybody else will and/or should react and handle situations the exact same way as they would (or think they would in the cases where the person hasn't actually experienced a similar situation and is basically just speculating about how they'd act/react if it happened to them).
We all know about the fight or flight response. In my experience (previous law enforcement) there are really three possible reactions to threats. Fight, flight or freeze. The reason a person "chooses" one particular response in a specific situation, is multifactorial. Some depend on a specific individual's personality and others may be tied to the circumstances/situation itself. I couldn't possibly list the all but some are; social/cultural conditioning, previous life experiences (especially those involving emotional or physical abuse and trauma), self-esteem and confidence, assessment of the threat, assessment of the consequences of a particular action and physical ability/strength.
To complicate matters further, neither of the "choices" (fight, flight or freeze), is the correct one in every single situation. While reacting/defending yourself with physical force might be completely appropriate in some situations, it isn't always the best option. Sometimes it's actually a dangerous or at the very least, a less than wise option.
Anyway, human beings are complex. The reasons why they react/act a certain way are complex too.
If you question why a person handled an assault a certain way and imply that they should have handled it differently or say that they've allowed a behavior to go on for too long, you are shifting some of the responsibility on to them. That's not acceptable in my opinion.
If you personally are both willing and capable of defending yourself against any possible type of threat/attack, then good for you (I mean that sincerely), but don't demand or even expect every other person to be able to do the same. If they aren't,
it doesn't in any way make them more responsible for the assault that happened to them. It doesn't make them weak. It just makes them, not you.
Another comment that's bothered me is the implication that not being firm with the sleezy doc is the reason it's still going on. That isn't necessarily true at all. While I think it's important as a general rule to be very clear and say: "no, I'm not interested in going out with you", my primary motivation is legal (if a victim chooses to pursue a criminal charge against the perpetrator). In securing a conviction it's good to give a suspect as little future "wiggle room" as possible. When there are witnesses to this statement, it's more difficult for the predator/defense team to sell the idea that they thought the victim was interested.
Saying no is often not enough to discourage and change a predator's behavior. In fact many do enjoy the resistance since it's often not primarily a question of interest/attraction but one of power or domination. So really, stop blaming the victim.
Someone suggested that physically defending you wife is illegal. That's not exactly true. While I'm not an expert on US law I'm reasonably convinced that self-defense to ward off an imminent or ongoing attack is legal. What's illegal is retaliatory beatings/assaults after the fact when there is no immediate danger present or preemptory beatings for something that may or may not take place in the more distant future. Simply put, as far as the law is concerned, self-defense is for the here and now. Everything else is pretty much vigilantism.
Another thing. This manly bluster about beating a wife's/girlfriend's/partner's attacker into a pulp (or semi-pulp). I've seen this many times in real life. When men have uttered threats like they'll beat the crap out of the person suspected of/or arrested for the crime I did two things. First, I'd inform them that even though I understand that they're upset, what they're suggesting is illegal and will come with consequences. The other thing I'd do is to ask them, for whose benefit would this be carried out? Do they genuinely believe that this will make their wife or partner feel better or heal more swiftly or is it to make themselves feel better? When I talk to the women, it's not usually something they wish that their husbands/partners do. And as I mentioned earlier, these things can easily backfire.
One last thing. Should one decide to take "justice" (although I'd ague that it's more like vengeance) into their own hands, I find that it's wisest not to broadcast it anywhere, including "anonymous" forums. If it were me I'd make darn sure to make it a secret known to one person and take it to my grave.
Normally I always quote the post/s I'm responding to but there were so many different things that caught my attention. It's probably about ten different quotes/posts so I decided to make it a more general post addressing various issues.
Great post! I wish I could like this a million times!
Isn't it self evident that her response was inadequate as evidenced by it escalating?
No, it's not. Macawake mentioned that predators feel excited about resistance. The pathology of the doctor is why it is escalating. The lack of adequate response by management is why it is escalating. For normal people, the OPs reaction would be adequate, but for this shitbag, it's not.
Your answer is to beat the living **** outta him. Unless it is a response to an immediate threat, it's vigilantism.
It is so easy to say "I'd yell, I'd kick his butt, I'd punch him...." but the fact remains that you have not a clue what you would do if put in that situation, unless you WERE in that situation.
I love how all of you assume that those us advocating fighting back know nothing.
I'm a previous victim of sexual abuse who decided long ago that no one will EVER victimize me again. I DO know exactly what I would do.
And I don't apologize for expecting women who claim that they can do and have it all, and are so powerful, to act like it. High school girls in the 50s dealt with sexually inappropriate men more effectively than today's "empowered" feminist model.
Of course men should be raised not to act like this, but there will always be sociopaths and dysfunctional individuals among us. So you need to be prepared.
Isn't it self evident that her response was inadequate as evidenced by it escalating?
I'm sorry, but arrrrgggghhhh As I mentioned previously in this thread, I'm not a psychiatric nurse. What I do have is a Masters degree in Criminology. Criminology does involve a lot of sociology and psychiatry. I've sat through umpteen criminal trials and listened to the result of a court-mandated psychiatric evaluations for suspects arrested for violent crimes. I have interrogated these suspects and interviewed crime victims and witnesses.
Thinking that continuing or escalating harrassment or violence, is proof of an insufficient response from the victim is simplistic and WRONG.
I've already covered the fact that demanding that a victim resists more forcefully to match the attack, is indeed holding the victim responsible for stopping the criminal act of another individual. You're spreading out the blame for something that in my opinion should just be one person's (the aggressor's) responsibility. In reality you're demanding or expecting that all individual's should be capable of a very high level of aggression and be able (mentally and physically) to inflict serious bodily harm on another person (because it may come to that). Not all people have this in them. That shouldn't mean that they should have to suffer at the hands of criminals as a consequence of their inability to injure or kill other people.
I have personal experience of several cases where women forcefully resisted various attacks and it cost them their life. I have others where I'm convinced that not resisting actually spared a woman's life. Some of the women who didn't resist, didn't because they were petrified. Others made a (in my opinion) correct assessment of their assailant and their own chances to fight him off, and concluded that remaining passive was their best chance of survival. One case even involves a serial rapist, who killed one of his victims, the only one who resisted. It wasn't his last victim prior to his arrest, so not a classic case of escalation in case you were wondering. (We know that the survivors didn't resist because we talked to them, and we know that the person was killed resisted due to large amounts of gruesome forensic evidence clearly supporting that assumption).
I'm not saying that women should never defend themselves when they're attacked, I actually think it's often, or even most times, the "right" thing to do. My point is that a) making the attacked person responsible for putting stop to a criminal attack is wrong and b) providing the cookie cutter/one-size-fits-all advice to all women (or men) to physically resist harrassments/attacks, without knowing the particulars of the specific situation, is highly irresponsible.
Again, some types of prepetrators absolutely enjoy the heck out of their victim's "no", "stop" or physical struggle and will intensify/escalate their assault.
When I was about 12 years old I moved to a new town. In short order a group of bullies started waiting for my little sister and I on our walk home from school. They beat me up a couple times and stole from my little sister. So one Sunday I took an ax handle out of the barn and hid it along our rout home from school, near where the group of boys waited for us. On Monday they again were waiting for us but this time I beat the hell out of them with the ax handle. Problem solved. Never had an issue with bullies again and my little sister was never bothered again. Problem solved. Its about personal responsibility and self care.
While I'm glad that the bullying ended, in my opinion that kind of premeditation and capacity for violence in a twelve-year-old, is concerning. Your actions are hardly representative of the average kid.
I have a capacity for violence. I didn't have it as a child, but it's something my previous job has taught me. I've been outnumbered in situations where the opponents were some really nasty pieces of work, so a certain viciousness was developed out of necessity. It's not something I'm in the habit of bragging about. It truly isn't something to brag about. I consider myself damaged in a sense, eventhough that side of me has kept me ,as well as a few work partners, alive and reasonably unscathed.
I have to ask you, do you really think that more violence is what this world needs?
(Judging from what I see and experience, my daily newspaper and the TV news, I'm personally inclined to say no).
Self-defense is one thing. What you seem to be advocating goes quite a few steps further and I have problems reconciling it with a modern society governed by law.
I love how all of you assume that those us advocating fighting back know nothing.
I'm a previous victim of sexual abuse who decided long ago that no one will EVER victimize me again. I DO know exactly what I would do.
And I don't apologize for expecting women who claim that they can do and have it all, and are so powerful, to act like it. High school girls in the 50s dealt with sexually inappropriate men more effectively than today's "empowered" feminist model.
Of course men should be raised not to act like this, but there will always be sociopaths and dysfunctional individuals among us. So you need to be prepared.
Out of all I've read here, this takes the cake. I will try my best to explicitly express why this makes me so angry, because, after all, if I'm "so powerful," I should act like it, right?
Your third paragraph fails to take into account a number of factors specific to the OP. She's normal; he isn't. She has said no unequivocally a number of times to no effect. She has gone to management who told her to suck it up. Many in this thread have stated that going on with the complaint may not work out well for her because he's the money-maker. Let's not forget that she has had to experience the escalation, which has a cumulative effect of intimidation. She hasn't described this guy's size or her own nor their proportional physical strengths, but working the averages, I would say he's bigger and stronger than she is.
You are just looking at gender, AND you are sarcastically challenging women by saying if they don't act powerful they don't deserve power! You're about two decades too late; Camille Paglia created the feminist backlash genre in the early 1990s.
Also, macawake touched on what it takes to beat up someone, even if you feel like they deserve it prior to the incident. It takes confidence in strength and moves, and it also takes rage and a certain amount in of dissociation from the fact that you are willingly and intentionally causing harm to another human being, even the sociopaths. Many people who must show force (cops and military, for example) acquire what we hope is extreme self control when showing force. Nurses have a different training, so to speak. We get hit, verbally abused, don't retaliate, and continue professional care through it all. Just as a certain mindset is acquired by other professions, nurses have acquired the opposite mindset.
As I mentioned previously in this thread, I'm not a psychiatric nurse. What I do have is a Masters degree in Criminology. Criminology does involve a lot of sociology and psychiatry. I've sat through umpteen criminal trials and listened to the result of a court-mandated psychiatric evaluations for suspects arrested for violent crimes. I have interrogated these suspects and interviewed crime victims and witnesses. 
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CamillusRN, BSN
434 Posts
Why only if it continues to happen? The "higher ups" had their chance and advised the OP to buzz off. I would not be so generous - I say go straight for the jugular and follow through with the suit.