Advice on creepy doctors?

brido · Apr 30, 2015

I love how all of you assume that those us advocating fighting back know nothing.
I'm a previous victim of sexual abuse who decided long ago that no one will EVER victimize me again. I DO know exactly what I would do.
And I don't apologize for expecting women who claim that they can do and have it all, and are so powerful, to act like it. High school girls in the 50s dealt with sexually inappropriate men more effectively than today's "empowered" feminist model.
Of course men should be raised not to act like this, but there will always be sociopaths and dysfunctional individuals among us. So you need to be prepared.

Well, when you call a victim of sexual assault/harassment a "pansy", be prepared to get a reaction.

What does "I don't apologize for expecting women who claim that they can do and have it all, and are so powerful, to act like it" have to do with the OP? Did she ever mention that? She said no to this man multiple times and went to the higher ups. Again, just because she didn't physically harm him does not mean that she hasn't been clear with him.

Not to make this about me, but as a survivor myself, I have a pretty good idea of what I would do. But I would never expect someone else to do the same thing as me nor would I criticize him/her for doing something different. I know all of the complexities that surround trauma, so I try to be as understanding as possible.

Red Kryptonite · Apr 30, 2015

Ok, if you're not okay with physical intervention, then how about calling the police? Grabbing her hips and pulling her against him was sexual assault. That's a crime. The admins wouldn't be able to sweep things under the rug if there was a criminal arrest. Rude words you can let the workplace higher ups deal with. Actual criminal behavior should be taken out of their hands and dealt with in the criminal system.

Farawyn · Apr 30, 2015

Of course men should be raised not to act like this, but there will always be sociopaths and dysfunctional individuals among us. So you need to be prepared.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. But if you are NOT prepared you don't deserve to be assaulted.

Lubear · May 1, 2015

The behavior is ongoing and includes a pattern of violations of body/personal space, and more than one "higher-up" told you to get over it?
I personally would have a hard time working somewhere where they blatantly disrespect you and condone the creep's behavior by their refusal to act on your complaint.
I would ask that higher up if they want to put that in writing, they suggesting you put up with him. Definitely put your complaint in writing with an HR rep, you cannot be the first and won't be the last if you just choose to change jobs. I think I might have yelled ouch and slapped his face if he touched me that way. So the scene would have demanded reporting and witnesses?

PMFB-RN, RN · May 2, 2015

Thinking that continuing or escalating harrassment or violence, is proof of an insufficient response from the victim is simplistic and WRONG.

Fair enough, but I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

I've already covered the fact that demanding that a victim resists more forcefully to match the attack, is indeed holding the victim responsible for stopping the criminal act of another individual.

It wasn't me who advocated that. I usually make an assumtion of much greater strength in a male attacker/female victim situation.

Y

ou're spreading out the blame for something that in my opinion should just be one person's (the aggressor's) responsibility. In reality you're demanding or expecting that all individual's should be capable of a very high level of aggression and be able (mentally and physically) to inflict serious bodily harm on another person (because it may come to that). Not all people have this in them.

Yes I am well aware of that. I am not sure how my opinion that the OP's response was inadiquate came to = an expectation of her kicking his butt. This may be sexists of me but I assume that the majority of females are going to come out on the losing end in a physical fight with a man.

I have personal experience of several cases where women forcefully resisted various attacks and it cost them their life.

I don't doubt you but not sure why you would address this to me. I expressed my opinion that the OP's reaction to the initial assault was inadiquate to prevent further assaults. The response that would more likely prevented further attacks are many and varied from walking out the door and never returning, calling the cops, screaming bloody murder, physical resistance and probably a thousand other possibilities.

I

have others where I'm convinced that not resisting actually spared a woman's life. Some of the women who didn't resist, didn't because they were petrified. Others made a (in my opinion) correct assessment of their assailant and their own chances to fight him off, and concluded that remaining passive was their best chance of survival. One case even involves a serial rapist, who killed one of his victims, the only one who resisted.

Again I only advocate for an effective response, whatever that may be. Violence being only one possible method among many.

wasn't his last victim prior to his arrest, so not a classic case of escalation in case you were wondering. (We know that the survivors didn't resist because we talked to them, and we know that the person was killed resisted due to large amounts of gruesome forensic evidence clearly supporting that assumption).

Glad that was your job and not mine.

I'm not saying that women should never defend themselves when they're attacked, I actually think it's often, or even most times, the "right" thing to do. My point is that a) making the attacked person responsible for putting stop to a criminal attack is wrong and b) providing the cookie cutter/one-size-fits-all advice to all women (or men) to physically resist harrassments/attacks, without knowing the particulars of the specific situation, is highly irresponsible.

Again not sure how you have come to the conclusion that I advocate for a one size solution, or even advocate for violence in the OP's situation at all. I did not do so.

While I'm glad that the bullying ended, in my opinion that kind of premeditation and capacity for violence in a twelve-year-old, is concerning. Your actions are hardly representative of the average kid.

Maybe you had a kinder, gentler childhood that I did.

I have a capacity for violence. I didn't have it as a child, but it's something my previous job has taught me. I've been outnumbered in situations where the opponents were some really nasty pieces of work, so a certain viciousness was developed out of necessity.

Exactly the same for me, except that happend at a much younger age for me than it did you.

I have to ask you, do you really think that more violence is what this world needs?
(Judging from what I see and experience, my daily newspaper and the TV news, I'm personally inclined to say no).

Well first the world is a MUCH less violent place than it ever has been before. Second I would have to say yes. Violence is like drugs. The right drug, in the right place & time, can be a life saver. Example the RN gives the OD patient the drug Narcan and saves them. The wrong drug, in the wrong hands is only evil. Example cocain in the hands of the cartels slaughtering people in Mexico.

So yes more of the right kind of violence, at the right time and place will make the world a better place in my opinion.

I gave an example of an extreme response to a particular situation. By no means do I thing that it is the one size fits all solution to every problem.

Self-defense is one thing. What you seem to be advocating goes quite a few steps further and I have problems reconciling it with a modern society governed by law.

I advocated for an appropiate response that would prevent further attacks. What that response might be would depends entirly on the situation.

PMFB-RN, RN · May 2, 2015

And very unfortunately, if one were to physically fight back in this day and age, they would get in just as much if not more hot water than the perpetrator.
There are many, many places of education, employment, wherever that have zero tolerance programs. Zero tolerance is just a fancy way of saying "let us handle it" as if one takes matters into their own hands, they would be subject to as much "punishment" as the person who started all this to begin with. And if you were to beat a kid with an axe handle today, you would most likely end up with a criminal record, and your parents sued for injuries that you gave their special snowflake.

Ah no worries there. At that time there was only a barely functioning and corupt police force. Now that country more resembles a failed state. Probably easier to get away with violence there now than it was in the early 80's.

It is so easy to say "I'd yell, I'd kick his butt, I'd punch him...." but the fact remains that you have not a clue what you would do if put in that situation, unless you WERE in that situation.

Right, I would think that was so obvious as to not need mentioning.

It is seemingly also the way that facilities can "get ya" and refrain from full responsibility if a nurse (or whomever) doesn't follow the policy to a "T". After all, you took the education unit--you passed the little test at the end....you should know this stuff!! (

Of course. I thought everyone knew that the purpose of these little, mandatory "education" pieces was so the faciliety could say "Hey it's the nurse's fault. After all we provided them with the proper education, see here is the proof" and they produce some absurd 5 question "test" we all took at the end of the "education".

Bottom line is that if the MD in question is a money maker, they will do whatever it takes to have him continue to make money for them. The untouchables employ all sorts of holier than thou tactics, as they are most usually spoiled children that have every whim accounted for.

I am happy I no longer work in places like that. Were I work physicians are held to a very high standard of conduct and are not untoutchable demi gods.

Seaofclouds, BSN, RN · May 2, 2015

OP, how did your meeting go yesterday?

DoeRN · May 2, 2015

OP how was the meeting?

**canoehead, BSN, RN** · May 3, 2015

The meeting was rescheduled to Monday...

OP, I would get a lawyer to sit in and take notes. You'll show your committment to pursuing this issue with HR.If it goes further you'll have had him/her involved from the beginning.

CamillusRN, BSN · May 3, 2015

The meeting was rescheduled to Monday...
OP, I would get a lawyer to sit in and take notes. You'll show your committment to pursuing this issue with HR.If it goes further you'll have had him/her involved from the beginning.

Very much this!

NicuGal, MSN, RN · May 4, 2015

No means no. I would have pulled out my phone and called security the second he laid hands on me.

macawake, MSN · May 4, 2015

Fair enough, but I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

Yes, we will.

It wasn't me who advocated that. I usually make an assumtion of much greater strength in a male attacker/female victim situation.

Yes I am well aware of that. I am not sure how my opinion that the OP's response was inadiquate came to = an expectation of her kicking his butt.

I don't doubt you but not sure why you would address this to me. I expressed my opinion that the OP's reaction to the initial assault was inadiquate to prevent further assaults.

Again not sure how you have come to the conclusion that I advocate for a one size solution, or even advocate for violence in the OP's situation at all. I did not do so.

I realize that you didn't explicitly say that OP personally should kick her attacker's butt. The reason I'm under the impression that you advocate violence as a solution to her problem are these earlier posts in this thread:

I read the OP and It didn't seem to me that her response was aggresive and firm. I don't blame the OP for what happend. I am questioning her response to it.

I absolutly can not believe that you have allowed this to continue for so long!

and

If I were your husband I would catch this guy alone in the parking lot and knock his teeth out.

The response that would more likely prevented further attacks are many and varied from walking out the door and never returning, calling the cops, screaming bloody murder, physical resistance and probably a thousand other possibilities.

I don't know if I somehow missed it but I didn't see you suggest these other options earlier, which is why I thought that you advocated violence as the universal "fixitall" for situations like OP's. You did suggest that her response wasn't aggressive enough.

I guess I didn't interpret aggression as meaning walking out the door or calling the police.

Glad that was your job and not mine.

I know, I'm glad it's no longer mine. They were ugly and tragic incidents, causing nothing but pain and anguish. It does eat at your soul/spirit.

Maybe you had a kinder, gentler childhood that I did.

I'm sure I did in some ways, in others maybe not. If I understand you correctly you're right, as a child I could count on adults to keep me safe.

I'm sorry you felt that the responsibility of providing protection for yourself and your younger sister from harm, fell on you at such a young age.

Well first the world is a MUCH less violent place than it ever has been before. Second I would have to say yes. Violence is like drugs. The right drug, in the right place & time, can be a life saver.

So yes more of the right kind of violence, at the right time and place will make the world a better place in my opinion.

I think this is where our main disagreement lies. I believe in self-defense (as defined in a previous post) but not in retalition or "prophylactic" beatings. I believe in leaving "retaliation" or rather punishment for a crime, to the legal system rather then arbitrarily being meted out by individual citizens.