Advanced Nursing is often considered less rigorous than Medicine even though Nursing is it's own profession. Of course there's overlap. Do you think it's because nursing doesn't require the same rigorous premed perquisites?Osteopathic medicine use to be regarded the same well, but now it is equivalent to allopathic medicine. Do you think requiring the premed prerequisite curriculum (eg: PA, DO, MD prereqs) to gain entry to advanced practice will better prepare advanced practice nursing clinicians?
For all those who want that extra science knowledge that medical students are exposed to (notice I didn't say 'taught') . Nothing is stopping you from learning the material yourself. Go buy used versions of the textbooks or the review books for the usmle. Watch videos on YouTube.
University professors are rewarded for being good researchers not good teachers especially in the sciences. You're not losing much studying on your own. Ask any medical school student.
If you're really that gung-ho about taking a science class with a real professor. Sign up for independent study with a science professor.
I would propose a different theory (maybe it has been proposed already). This theory is that we need to teach all NP (and MD/DO/PA) students that they have to be life long learners, that they will not know it all when they graduate, and that they will need to continue to learn and grow as they practice. Even once they have many years, they will need to continue to dedicate time to learning and improving in their practice.
Irregardless of the educational model, it is those life long learners who are not defensive about their knowledge level but are rather willing to learn and grow on a daily basis who make up the type of practitioner I like working with, and learning from, and who I want working on me and my family.
I do believe most who go through NP school (and MD/DO/PA) schools get this taught to them.
I think if we can agree to this, then we can agree that although there is room for improvement in all of the educational paths, none is particularly the ideal path for all and each individual should pick the path and career that meets their individual needs. If that is NP, than so be it, if not than pick another path. No harm done, no reason to convert others to your path or vice versa.
As for the OP's original question, there is nothing that is precluding you from taking additional science classes to augment your understanding of the underlying cellular and chemical level physiology occurring if you believe you are not getting sufficient knowledge in your program. I've never used any organic chemistry in my education or practice, and I've never met a MD/DO who has been able to claim that his organic chem was needed. I have found adv cell, genetics and several of my other undergrad classes to be useful in both my ADN studies, my practice as a RN, and in my NP studies. I actually found that core education to be helpful when I was an MA in a cardiology office prior to starting my RN studies as well, but I wouldn't suggest that all MAs should have adv cell or physiology courses!
As someone who took two semesters of intro biology while in NP school (after already having taken A&P and patho and advanced patho and my first clinical semester) I can say with a resounding YES that I think pre-med classes should be incorporated into the nursing and NP curriculum. It opened my mind to many things and made me think about my practice in a whole new light. MUCH more useful than nursing theory, which I don't even use. Ever. Or policy, which as a practitioner I don't use.
Since professions are theory driven what the heck are you doing? I thought every workplace had policies and procedures.
I don't know but I think I had a lot of vigorous science classes for nursing school. I had to take multiple biology classes before I could even set foot into an anatomy class. Even before that I had to take multiple chemistry classes. I was in these same classes with many pre med majors. So navy the question is the requirements to enter NP school are not as rigorous because nurses come into NP school with a lot more hands on experience than the average medical student. I for one have noticed the many medical students lack critical thinking. When I work bedside, I sometimes think to myself. ***** How did this kid get into med school if he can't even think things through. So, being "just" a floor nurse brings much more to the table then being a simple med student. Honestly, NP students have so much more background when applying to grad school than a bs in biology major going to medical school wouldn't you agree???
I would think medical education is aware of the lack of real life experience amongst med students. Med school is an academic pursuit and most of the kids that go have never done anything but go to school and study. Sure, there are exceptions! But I think the residency is where they correct that and get their eyes opened. One doctor that I know has two sayings. One, referring to medication, "without side effects, there are no effects," and two, "med school makes the doctor, residency makes the physician." He told me once when we were talking about my PMHNP curricula, "You learn on the job. The school stuff is eventually **** that's just nice to know." Made me think. I don't slam advanced practice nursing for a lack of scientific exposure, but I support enhancement.
I would think medical education is aware of the lack of real life experience amongst med students. Med school is an academic pursuit and most of the kids that go have never done anything but go to school and study. Sure there are exceptions! But I think the residency is where they correct that and get their eyes opened.[/quote']
Exactly, so this is where my theory of less requirements needed for NP school. NPs have to have nursing experience prior to applying to NP school. Unlike doctors, who don't need any medical experience prior to going to medical school, hence less requirements to enter NP school. I think bedside nursing experience, which most NP schools require is a huge knowledge base and a huge advantage that NPs have. Bedside nurses have seen what meds/protocols/ signs and symptoms go to what multiple times. They don't have the theory knowledge behind it but they know what's going on.
One great example was before NP school I knew about right upper quadrant pain associated with pain after eating and a tender right upper quadrant meant a gallbladder problem. As a NP, now I know about Murphy's sign and how actually assess for a gallbladder problem. I also know from a bedside nurse stand point the types of surgeries and the usual protocol. Such invaluable information that has been repeated in multiple patients that I have seen, which a med student has only read about.
Anyway, that's just my opinion on why NPs have less requirements then MDs school.
Exactly, so this is where my theory of less requirements needed for NP school. NPs have to have nursing experience prior to applying to NP school. Unlike doctors, who don't need any medical experience prior to going to medical school, hence less requirements to enter NP school. I think bedside nursing experience, which most NP schools require is a huge knowledge base and a huge advantage that NPs have. Bedside nurses have seen what meds/protocols/ signs and symptoms go to what multiple times. They don't have the theory knowledge behind it but they know what's going on.
One great example was before NP school I knew about right upper quadrant pain associated with pain after eating and a tender right upper quadrant meant a gallbladder problem. As a NP, now I know about Murphy's sign and how actually assess for a gallbladder problem. I also know from a bedside nurse stand point the types of surgeries and the usual protocol. Such invaluable information that has been repeated in multiple patients that I have seen, which a med student has only read about.
Anyway, that's just my opinion on why NPs have less requirements then MDs school.
I think any exposure to healthcare can only help a future (insert medical professional) be more successful at their career endeavors. That said, obviously, people can walk into school, graduate, get trained and function well. I'm going into psych, and my only nursing experience has been 12 months of med-surg. They say, "every patient is a psych patient," but I can attest to the fact that where I worked there was hardly enough time to ask the patient's name let alone get into the empathy stuff. I gave away some psychotropics to people often without knowing for what diagnosis, and the only true woman I would call a psych patient that I encountered, and a frequent flyer at that, was Ms. Green and her screaming, "Oh, God, please don't let me die. I need another Xanax. I can't breathe!" as she plugged away at the sack full of cheeseburgers she always brought when she planned to be admitted.
I don't get why people think that all the wonderful qualities that NPs bring to the table means there shouldn't also be advanced science. Yes, NPs have prior experience. Yes, NPs approach care from a more human center model. But you know what? All that's a sack of beans if there's no in depth science knowledge to back it up. I've met many MDs that have horrible bedside manners, but I've always been impressed with their knowledge base. When it comes to NPs, the bedside manner and patient approach is almost always superior, but I can say about 1/3 of those I've encountered have trouble answering even basic pathophysiology questions. I think NPs have amazing potential, but just imagine how wonderful it would be if they had physician level knowledge combined with the caring, nursing approach. It'd be the perfect provider. That won't happen until we beef up the science, both before and during the programs. I have a strong science background (non nursing upper level biology courses) and that deeper understanding has really helped me get things at a level that my colleagues often don't. At least at the undergraduate level, nursing science courses are elementary compared to biology major science courses....and we need to change that. At least before NP school, students should be required to take upper level genetics, cell biology, microbiology, etc.
I agree with FutureeastcoastNP's comments regarding NPs requiring to take advanced courses in genetics, microbio, cell biology, etc.
In fact some good NP programs do offer advanced courses in these subjects.
Further, there are good online courses offered by edx.org, coursera.org, Khan academy, Stanford, MIT and Harvard and other world class institutes which can enhance your knowledge in these subject matter.
Very interesting blog about the state of provider practice, I actually enjoyed reading it. I disagree with the writer about "ultimate responsibility" as I and held to the same standards as my MD colleagues, but otherwise an interesting take on things.
Gentleman_nurse, MSN
318 Posts
For all those who want that extra science knowledge that medical students are exposed to (notice I didn't say 'taught') . Nothing is stopping you from learning the material yourself. Go buy used versions of the textbooks or the review books for the usmle. Watch videos on YouTube.
University professors are rewarded for being good researchers not good teachers especially in the sciences. You're not losing much studying on your own. Ask any medical school student.
If you're really that gung-ho about taking a science class with a real professor. Sign up for independent study with a science professor.