I was surprised to hear an aquaintance of my family was a diploma nurse. I just assumed she had a degree (not that it makes any difference to me), but she was telling me that a diploma nurse ranked higher than an ADN on the nursing food chain. The also said that programs still exist where you can get a diploma in nursing, but its very rare (I guess you have to know the secret password or something :) )
She often looks down on me because I am "just an ADN" and that she outranks me (not to mention she has 20 years experience on me) but I think a lot of this has to do with my aunt blabbing to her what my salary is (which makes hers look really, really small). Nevermind the fact that she works in little community hospital and I work in a Level 1 trauma center. She's just a miserable woman who cheats on her husband...and wants everyone else to be unhappy as well (we refer to her as the "Human Quaalude"
So, I'm confused about the Diploma nurse thing. I worked with a Diploma nurse (and she is one of the best nurses I know), and she said that to her knowledge, no such programs existed anymore and the DN's were grandfathered in when they required degrees. I was also under the impression that a DN was the same as an ADN...just without the degree. Can anyone clarify this for me???
Of course, you took the NCLEX-PN, not the NCLEX-RN (taking the same NCLEX as everone else), but I wonder what state has so many nurses they can exclude LPN's?
As for "stereotypes" for LPN's, I work for the fed gov at a military hospital and LPN's there are of every description. I did not know there was a type.
I am an RN, I work ICU, I have a diploma, no degree of any kind, I have 22 years of ICU experience, I work with LPN's, but we do not do exactly the same job.
No, it isn't the same job, and until I started school to be an RN I did not appreciate the difference. I also graduated with honors from the LPN program, it didn't help me get any better of a job than anyone who "just passed." And it is true, the hospitals are working on phasing out LPNs altogether. (I would have never gone to LPN school if the RN program hadn't been so far away.)
As far as the NCLEX-PN, I was told by the state that the only time they had people fail the exam was if English was not their native language and there was a language barrier issue. It is an easy test.
As far as having a college degree amounting to anything, I heard someone say once, that the six most important words for a liberal arts graduate to know were: would you like fries with that? And you can go to any Red Lobster or TGI Fridays and find college graduates galore....they are the ones waiting tables.
Of course, I have seen RNs who don't have the sense God gave a goose, but there is a lot more to becoming an RN than an LPN. The level of work is harder. But then the level of work to become a pharmacist, for example, is a lot harder than the level of work to become an RN...so I'm not saying that RNs should be put on a pedestal, but have to give credit where it is due.
It seems like they should just phase out the LPN programs, seeing as that is not what most places are hiring these days.
I guess I could take my frustration to the NFLPN or the nursing board but I don't have the energy right now to lobby and be an advocate for my group. Right now I just need income.
If income is your main concern the nursing home should be your best bet anyway. Nursing home LPNs here make more than hospital RNs (and nursing home RNs make more than hopital RNs we well, the nursing homes here just pay better).
Redbait - was perusing this thread and just curious to know what you meant that in "20 years I might feel the same way?" Since I'm pushing 46, hopefully in 20 years I'll be retired - lol. BTW - my avatar does look like me - 20 years ago - tee hee hee!
Well, I admit, I had to look back at my post LOL. I meant, in my obscure little way, was that in the beginning we might think one route of entry is better than another, but in 20 years we will all have probably seen and done it all and our training beginnings will be long behind us.
BTW, I have not been held back from management opportunities. I have not moved into management because I'm not a manager and don't want to be one (I make way more money than any of my managers because I can take advantage of overtime and special pay incentives). I have taken a strong role in staff development, however.
I'm 60 and no retirement in sight for me. My pensions, social security, and individual investments would produce about 50% of my present income. If I could live on 50% of my income, I would be doing it now! No, I will have to continue to work in order to support the lifestyle I choose to live. I'm just not a simple girl...but I am willing to pay for it myself...and I do get to do something I love and am very good at...that's pretty lucky.
I am so glad to see this thread! I have a BA (English and Education) and plan to start a hospital base nursing program in January. I had to take A&P 1&2, statistics, micro, and chemistry prior to starting the RN program. The program is 23 months and has over 1000 clinical hours. It's NCLEX pass rate is 100%. The program costs $10,000--which is much cheaper than the university and one of the reasons I'm going there. My question is "Will I be able to advance into management or teach nursing with my Rn + BA? " Thanks in advance for any info/advice you can pass my way!
I am so glad to see this thread! I have a BA (English and Education) and plan to start a hospital base nursing program in January. I had to take A&P 1&2, statistics, micro, and chemistry prior to starting the RN program. The program is 23 months and has over 1000 clinical hours. Its NCLEX pass rate is 100%. The program costs $10,000--which is much cheaper than the university and one of the reasons I'm going there. My question is "Will I be able to advance into management or teach nursing with my Rn + BA? " Thanks in advance for any info/advice you can pass my way!
Another diploma student here ... just wanted to send good wishes your way, kerinvb. I'll be graduating in June. Best of luck to you. :)
Red Bait - thanks for the clarification. The entire reason I returned to school was because since my hospital is going Magnet (as is the hospital across the street) - I had no options for anything. I was an LPN to ADN to BSN and MSN (June 05). Believe me, I don't think I'm any better nurse for having a bacholors or master's degree but nowadays in my corner of the world - that's what I need. I know that I'll be working until I'm well into my 60's too and even then if social security goes belly-up - maybe we can push each other's wheelchairs around at work - lol.
It sure seems the BSN is the gold standard out there in nursing academia. BSN programs are into money grabs and aren't particularly interested in working with nurses of other educational backgrounds, I've found. In retrospect, wish I had taken the opportunity to get my BSN when I was young; life has a way of getting in the way of such things unfortunately. I encourage AD and diploma nurses to get that BSN ASAP as it provides options for you as you age.
When I had the opportunity to return to complete my BSN, most of my credits were too old and I was unwilling to jump through all the BSN academic hoops, repeating about 90% of coursework.
I'm an old Diploma RN, graduated in 1981 and it was a good program in a dedicated teaching hospital. Yes, we were given the opportunity to work for extra pay/work study, but we weren't abused nor expected to staff the hospital...we were functioning in NA roles. It was great experience, IMO.
I support BSN as entry level but not because they are better nurses; we need solidarity and I think this entry level will help us with that plus the public perception that we are professionals, not overpaid handmaidens.
As far as the BA, I imagine you can use it as a selling point for some non bedside jobs but it sure seems like the wave of the future for 'BSN preferred' out there, for everything away from the bedside.
I am so glad to see this thread! I have a BA (English and Education) and plan to start a hospital base nursing program in January. I had to take A&P 1&2, statistics, micro, and chemistry prior to starting the RN program. The program is 23 months and has over 1000 clinical hours. It's NCLEX pass rate is 100%. The program costs $10,000--which is much cheaper than the university and one of the reasons I'm going there. My question is "Will I be able to advance into management or teach nursing with my Rn + BA? " Thanks in advance for any info/advice you can pass my way!
The school you are going to sounds like the one I'm going to (in LR, Arkansas) only I'm doing the 1 yr. LPN to RN track.
I don't believe a BA in English will matter, around here they hire associate degree nurses to teach in the vo-techs (there is even an LPN teaching an MOA class there).
If it comes down to whether it matters if you have a college degree or not you will need a BSN.
In SC you need a BSN to teach clinicals at the ADN level, but an MN or MSN to teach at the ADN level in the classroom. I am flabbergasted than an ADN grad is hired to teach anywhere. At the university level here you may be hired with masters level prep, but you must attain doctoral level education within 5 years to keep the position. I think a good analogy for understanding nursing ed is this: a nursing student being taught by diploma or ADN nurses is akin to a mechanic learning how to work on cars from another mechanic; a nursing student being taught by a BSN is akin to a mechanic learning how to work on cars from the senior mechanic or service manager; as masters level degrees are specialized, a nursing student being taught by that level is akin to being taught to work on Porsches by a specially trained Porsche mechanic; and a nursing student being taught by a doctorally prepared nurse is akin to a mechanic being taught to work on cars by an automotive engineer/designer. As far as the NCLEX goes, do not sweat the pass rate. All schools have as their goals to have their students pass. That's what you should get in basic nursing programs. If the programs begin to have very poor pass rates, they get into trouble and heads roll. I base most of this on my clinical experiences of 29 years and having passed through a diploma, RN to BSN, and MSN programs. As the progression occurs one's focus on nursing changes. Diploma and ADN nurses should be relegated to staff level positions in most cases. I know this line of thought upsets a lot of people, but the notion of a nurse is a nurse is a nurse because we all pass the same boards is negative for nursing in an overall sense. That line of thinking has been used by hospital administrators for decades and none of those guys are nursings friend. By the way, all of my education cost not more than $5000.00 because of scholarships and employer reimbursement and upfront payment over the years.
I found this thread and a few of the responses to be somewhat humorous and perplexing. Apparently the big issue revolves around who is "qualified" to to be in a "leadership" or "management" position in nursing? Is it a nursing ADN, BSN, MSN, or what? Let's look at the ADN vs BSN. If you exclude all the liberal arts from a BSN, the only difference (here in the "midwest" -ya betcha!:chuckle) is that they require a general chem. with a lab, a nutrition course, and a statistics course, and two nursing "theory" classes. As far as academically learned nursing skills or clinical time, or "learning how to be a nurse" the BSN doesn't add anything to the ADN. Where are the management courses? Where are the business administration courses? Where are the human resources courses? What about accounting or financing courses? Then why would anyone say a BSN or MSN nurse is qualified to be in a "management" position? It's like telling a Porsche mechanic to start working on Lear Jets. The job is incompatible with the skill level or education. If you want RN's for management positions hire RN's who have business degrees, finance degrees, MBA's, or human resources degrees. Keep the ADN's, BSN's, and MSN's, with their nursing education, at the "bed side" a.ka. "patient care," "hands on", where they can best utilize the education and skills they were taught. If they want to get into leadership or administrative positions then they should, at the very least, complete the necessary education that would allow them to attempt to qualify for "management" or "administrative" roles. It's simply a question of advancing the people who have the necessary skills and education that are compatible with the job description. It seems odd that anybody, with just a nursing background, would even be considered for a management or administrative position. Their education, and if they don't have a past history of management or administrative experience, doesn't qualify them for this. Snoopd
QUOTE=Da Monk]In SC you need a BSN to teach clinicals at the ADN level, but an MN or MSN to teach at the ADN level in the classroom. I am flabbergasted than an ADN grad is hired to teach anywhere. At the university level here you may be hired with masters level prep, but you must attain doctoral level education within 5 years to keep the position. I think a good analogy for understanding nursing ed is this: a nursing student being taught by diploma or ADN nurses is akin to a mechanic learning how to work on cars from another mechanic; a nursing student being taught by a BSN is akin to a mechanic learning how to work on cars from the senior mechanic or service manager; as masters level degrees are specialized, a nursing student being taught by that level is akin to being taught to work on Porsches by a specially trained Porsche mechanic; and a nursing student being taught by a doctorally prepared nurse is akin to a mechanic being taught to work on cars by an automotive engineer/designer. As far as the NCLEX goes, do not sweat the pass rate. All schools have as their goals to have their students pass. That's what you should get in basic nursing programs. If the programs begin to have very poor pass rates, they get into trouble and heads roll. I base most of this on my clinical experiences of 29 years and having passed through a diploma, RN to BSN, and MSN programs. As the progression occurs one's focus on nursing changes. Diploma and ADN nurses should be relegated to staff level positions in most cases. I know this line of thought upsets a lot of people, but the notion of a nurse is a nurse is a nurse because we all pass the same boards is negative for nursing in an overall sense. That line of thinking has been used by hospital administrators for decades and none of those guys are nursings friend. By the way, all of my education cost not more than $5000.00 because of scholarships and employer reimbursement and upfront payment over the years.
It seems odd that anybody, with just a nursing background, would even be considered for a management or administrative position. Their education, and if they don't have a past history of management or administrative experience, doesn't qualify them for this. Snoopd
So you think it would serve nurses better to have a manager who knows exactly squat about nursing?? I think there is enough of that already. I want an expert in NURSING to be in charge of nurses. Let an expert in bean counting be in charge of the beans.
Chaining BSNs and MSNs to the bedside is a good way to cut down on the number of BSNs and MSNs, IMO. I am advancing my education to get the h*ll away from the bedside!!! If there were no other options in nursing, I would get the h*ll out of nursing. Why would someone get an MSN to be a "bedside nurse"??
Show me a current BSN program that does not have a management/leadership component, and I'll show you one that probably isn't accredited. I believe the requirement is there for that very reason. Nurses are as qualified as anyone else - and in all reality more qualified than anyone else - to be in nursing management positions. I would not put a nurse over the billing department any more than I would put a pharmacist over physical therapy. Do you think, though, that pharmacists and therapists do not hold management positions within their departments?? They do - go to monster.com and you will see "director of pharmacy" positions advertised right along with "director of nursing". They don't hire MBAs for these positions - they hire those with experience and education in the field.
If income is your main concern the nursing home should be your best bet anyway. Nursing home LPNs here make more than hospital RNs (and nursing home RNs make more than hopital RNs we well, the nursing homes h
ere just pay better).
I know what you're saying, it's that I just didn't know it would be the only route available to me for income as an LPN. My least favorite rotations during clinical were the nursing homes because they were so depressing. To get the med surg experience from a hospital, I will have to apply for reciprocity and go to another state. Fortunately, I live on the border, or I would be totally up the creek.
LadyMadonna
120 Posts
No, it isn't the same job, and until I started school to be an RN I did not appreciate the difference. I also graduated with honors from the LPN program, it didn't help me get any better of a job than anyone who "just passed." And it is true, the hospitals are working on phasing out LPNs altogether. (I would have never gone to LPN school if the RN program hadn't been so far away.)
As far as the NCLEX-PN, I was told by the state that the only time they had people fail the exam was if English was not their native language and there was a language barrier issue. It is an easy test.
As far as having a college degree amounting to anything, I heard someone say once, that the six most important words for a liberal arts graduate to know were: would you like fries with that? And you can go to any Red Lobster or TGI Fridays and find college graduates galore....they are the ones waiting tables.
Of course, I have seen RNs who don't have the sense God gave a goose, but there is a lot more to becoming an RN than an LPN. The level of work is harder. But then the level of work to become a pharmacist, for example, is a lot harder than the level of work to become an RN...so I'm not saying that RNs should be put on a pedestal, but have to give credit where it is due.
It seems like they should just phase out the LPN programs, seeing as that is not what most places are hiring these days.