A question about Diploma Nurses

memphispanda, RN · Sep 2, 2004

Diploma programs are different from ADN programs. As far as being "better", or whatever, the diploma programs typically take 3 years to complete as scheduled by the program, while ADN programs take 2 years. So I guess in that sense perhaps she thinks the Diploma is better. Who knows. There are probably some differences in required courses with the ADN progrms requiring more non-nursing courses and the Diploma programs requiring more clinical time.

I graduated from a Diploma program in December, so yes, they are still around. My school is closing though. There are a few programs scattered around the county still.

Your "friends" attitude has nothing to do with the type of education she has though. She sounds like an obnoxious person who has to belittle others so she feels good about herself.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Sep 2, 2004

There still are diploma programs out there, but obviously there are more ADN and BSN programs out there.

Diploma, ADN and BSN nurses are all RNs. No one "outranks" anyone as we all take the same NCLEX. In the beginning we all go to the bedside and make the same amount of money (with some hospitals giving a small premium for BSNs). Later on it's the BSN nurses who can advance to some of the nonbedside nursing jobs such as teaching, managements, etc.

I think you hit the nail on the head. This person wants to put others down so she can feel better about herself. Take it with a grain of salt and consider the source. Good luck.

Jo Dirt · Sep 2, 2004

Diploma programs are different from ADN programs. As far as being "better", or whatever, the diploma programs typically take 3 years to complete as scheduled by the program, while ADN programs take 2 years. So I guess in that sense perhaps she thinks the Diploma is better. Who knows. There are probably some differences in required courses with the ADN progrms requiring more non-nursing courses and the Diploma programs requiring more clinical time.
I graduated from a Diploma program in December, so yes, they are still around. My school is closing though. There are a few programs scattered around the county still.
Your "friends" attitude has nothing to do with the type of education she has though. She sounds like an obnoxious person who has to belittle others so she feels good about herself.

I will be starting a diploma program at a hospital in Little Rock, Arkansas January 3, 05. I'm in what they call an "accelerated" program for LPN's to become RN's. The attraction for me was that you finish the program in 11 months...*if* you have the prerequisites out of the way (I have heard the actual program is VERY intense) I found that this diploma program has more required prerequisite courses than the ADN programs where I live now (in Tennessee). That is why I am having to cram in a chemistry and an extra nutrition course.

Still, I didn't know there was really any difference between the two...should I start getting a big head?

Headhurt, ADN · Sep 2, 2004

I never really saw one nurse as being better than the other...we are all taught to wipe front to back! :)

Can anyone tell me about the history of DN's and how they came to pass? I know about the ADN's, but DN is something we never really covered in school.

Altra, BSN, RN · Sep 2, 2004

So, I'm confused about the Diploma nurse thing. I worked with a Diploma nurse (and she is one of the best nurses I know), and she said that to her knowledge, no such programs existed anymore and the DN's were grandfathered in when they required degrees. I was also under the impression that a DN was the same as an ADN...just without the degree. Can anyone clarify this for me???

I'm enrolled in a diploma program. Though they do seem to have disappeared from some areas of the country, diploma programs are alive and very well throughout much of the northeast & some areas of the midwest. There are at least 8 within 50 miles of me here in Pittsburgh, including two that are part of the Univ. of Pittsburgh Medical Center, a major research institution & hospital group.

To the best of my knowledge, no state in the U.S. currently requires an ADN or BSN for RN licensure. North Dakota did attempt to require a BSN (for new licensees) for a relatively short period of time - I believe that requirement has now been rescinded. New York and some other states have also considered it, but I've learned from many nurses here at allnurses.com that these same debates have been taking place for the last 30 years, and there has yet to be any change - there are still 3 avenues to RN licensure - diploma program, associate's degree, or bachelor's degree.

ayndim · Sep 3, 2004

At the university here both ADN and DN get the same number of credits towards a BSN in the RN to BSN program. Which tells me that they are considered equivalent in education. But as another poster said an RN is an RN no matter the degree. When is the last time a patient asked what degree their RN had?

elkpark · Sep 3, 2004

Diploma programs were the original model for nursing education in the US, based on Florence Nightingale's educational model in England (although there were some significant differences -- Flo believed strongly that the schools should be entirely independent from hospitals, but, in the US, hospitals owned and operated the schools, and, for generations, used the students as free labor to run the hospitals -- but that has been changed for quite a while). The first diploma schools in the US were started up in the 1870s. The first college courses for nurses were offered at NYU in 1899 (although they did not have a full nursing program that offered a degree). In 1923, Yale University became the first college/university in the US to offer a degree in nursing (they absorbed the diploma program at Yale-New Haven Hospital, which was one of the original three US nursing schools). Associate's degrees in nursing were developed in the 1950s.

I attended a 3-year diploma program which is still in existence (and celebrated its centennial last year). And, when I say "three years," I mean three years -- we got two weeks off at Xmas and two weeks off at Easter. Went to school right through the summer. The program was actually 33 months of full time study. My program included college credit courses in English comp, psychology, sociology, nursing theory, and nursing management, in addition to all the science (we took organic chem and A&P with the pre-med majors at the college where the college courses were taught) and nursing courses (taught by the diploma school faculty), and had the same NLN accreditation as BSN programs (which many ADN programs don't have ...) We also had much more clinical time than either BSN or ADN programs.

Since then, I've returned to school and completed a BSN, completed an MSN, and have taught in an ADN program. The longer I've been out of school and practicing, the more I appreciate what an excellent nursing education I got in my program. We knew so much more coming out of school than new graduates (of either ADN or BSN programs) do today, it's ridiculous.

However, we all have the same RN license, and I certainly support the idea of university-based nursing education. I worry sometimes that we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater, but, then, nobody asked me what I thought ... :) There are still quite a few diploma programs around, but nowhere near as many as there used to be. On the other hand, a lot of them used to be pretty poor programs, so it's probably a good thing that they've shut down (I happened to luck into a good program, but that doesn't mean they were all strong programs -- as I mentioned, for generations they were seen by a lot of hospitals as a cheap way to staff the hospitals, rather than focusing on providing a good quality nursing education).

What really matters is how good a nurse you are, not where you went to school.

LydiaGreen · Sep 3, 2004

To my knowledge - we do not have ADN programs anywhere in Canada. We have DN and BSN programs. DN programs are run by colleges and take three years. BSN programs are run by universities and take four years. All of my instructors (I'm a DN) said that the main difference in the two is that DNs have more clinical time - we learn at the bedside from the first semester (three days classroom, two days clinical). BSNs have more classtime and many, many more papers to write (like a major thesis in fourth year). It seems to me (based on the difference in classes), that BSN is geared more toward research, education, and management. DN is definitely all about the bedside.

DN's and BSN's are both RN's and both required to take the same board exam for registration. There is a slight difference in pay (about $60 a month in Ontario I believe). Ontario has now made it a requirement to have a BSN from now on (I was among the last to graduate from a DN program). This is a silly move, as far as I'm concerned. Other provinces have tried it and then cried about their nursing shortage. My two cents - we will only be graduating half as many nurses and are already in a nursing shortage.

I work alongside many DNs and many BSNs. No one ever refers to themselves or others in that way. We are all RNs - period. No one is better than anyone else. The BSNs have the opportunity to move into management, teach nursing students, or conduct a research study. DNs do preceptor nursing students though. My preceptor was a DN and one of the greatest nurses I have ever seen. The DN program was perfect for me because all I am interested in is the bedside.

lil9008 · Sep 3, 2004

I agree there are different nursing programs. Like ADN, Diploma, And BSN. They all have the same thing in common. They are all RN's. they may all have different amount of schooling. ADN And Diploma RN both are the same. Bsn is a nurse with a degree that helps her/him move up the ladder, meaning there is room for upgrading in positions. But I feel a all RN nurses are the same. You are required to pass the same NCLEX Exam.

Trauma Columnist · Sep 4, 2004

I agree, an RN is an RN. In my little corner of the world though if a DN wants to pursue a BSN, there are a few more classes they have to take - not sure which ones, but one of my co-workers was talking about it.

Snoopd · Sep 4, 2004

I think, and have been told by several college recruiters, that there is no such thing as a 2 year AD or ADN degree anymore. With all the pre-requisits most two year programs now take 3 years to complete. Ditto for the "four" year degree, it takes most people now five years to complete a BA, BS, or BSN.

As far as one's pecking order "on the food chain" chain goes, this sounds like just more infighting and backstabbing and one upsmanship by nurses who should be working together and supporting each other's efforts, and their profession, instead of trying to tear each other down. It's pathetic what I sometimes hear in the work world, and often read, in these forums. To any outsider, someone not in the nursing profession, it must seem absolutely laughable and kindergardenish to witness. This is why nurses get exploited by hospital corporations - they waste all their energy trying to tear down their coworkers, and are totally distracted as to what is happening to their career, and the future of their profession. No wonder the nursing profession is an easy target for "employers" to exploit. Why not band together and focus on lowering patient/nurse ratios, raising wages, and taking on management instead of each other? P.S., no matter what type of degree you have, work expeience will always be KING. School education and work education are two different worlds and the one that counts is the hands on education you develop on the job.

Diploma programs are different from ADN programs. As far as being "better", or whatever, the diploma programs typically take 3 years to complete as scheduled by the program, while ADN programs take 2 years. So I guess in that sense perhaps she thinks the Diploma is better. Who knows. There are probably some differences in required courses with the ADN progrms requiring more non-nursing courses and the Diploma programs requiring more clinical time.
I graduated from a Diploma program in December, so yes, they are still around. My school is closing though. There are a few programs scattered around the county still.
Your "friends" attitude has nothing to do with the type of education she has though. She sounds like an obnoxious person who has to belittle others so she feels good about herself.