I was surprised to hear an aquaintance of my family was a diploma nurse. I just assumed she had a degree (not that it makes any difference to me), but she was telling me that a diploma nurse ranked higher than an ADN on the nursing food chain. The also said that programs still exist where you can get a diploma in nursing, but its very rare (I guess you have to know the secret password or something :) )
She often looks down on me because I am "just an ADN" and that she outranks me (not to mention she has 20 years experience on me) but I think a lot of this has to do with my aunt blabbing to her what my salary is (which makes hers look really, really small). Nevermind the fact that she works in little community hospital and I work in a Level 1 trauma center. She's just a miserable woman who cheats on her husband...and wants everyone else to be unhappy as well (we refer to her as the "Human Quaalude"
So, I'm confused about the Diploma nurse thing. I worked with a Diploma nurse (and she is one of the best nurses I know), and she said that to her knowledge, no such programs existed anymore and the DN's were grandfathered in when they required degrees. I was also under the impression that a DN was the same as an ADN...just without the degree. Can anyone clarify this for me???
SnoopD - although I think work experience is a component for advancement - you won't get too far w/o at least a BSN and preferably an MSN at least in Magnet hospitals. Both our hospital as well as the one across the street from us are doing the Magnet thing. As the publicity reaches everyone - it is hoped (at least by the ANCC and the Magnet hospitals) that patients will CHOOSE Magnet hospitals.
Specializes in Renal, OR, Med-Surg, Cardiac, Education.
:chuckle We must have gone to the same program. Learned a lot!!!! Hard!
Tug
Diploma programs were the original model for nursing education in the US, based on Florence Nightingale's educational model in England (although there were some significant differences -- Flo believed strongly that the schools should be entirely independent from hospitals, but, in the US, hospitals owned and operated the schools, and, for generations, used the students as free labor to run the hospitals -- but that has been changed for quite a while). The first diploma schools in the US were started up in the 1870s. The first college courses for nurses were offered at NYU in 1899 (although they did not have a full nursing program that offered a degree). In 1923, Yale University became the first college/university in the US to offer a degree in nursing (they absorbed the diploma program at Yale-New Haven Hospital, which was one of the original three US nursing schools). Associate's degrees in nursing were developed in the 1950s.
I attended a 3-year diploma program which is still in existence (and celebrated its centennial last year). And, when I say "three years," I mean three years -- we got two weeks off at Xmas and two weeks off at Easter. Went to school right through the summer. The program was actually 33 months of full time study. My program included college credit courses in English comp, psychology, sociology, nursing theory, and nursing management, in addition to all the science (we took organic chem and A&P with the pre-med majors at the college where the college courses were taught) and nursing courses (taught by the diploma school faculty), and had the same NLN accreditation as BSN programs (which many ADN programs don't have ...) We also had much more clinical time than either BSN or ADN programs.
Since then, I've returned to school and completed a BSN, completed an MSN, and have taught in an ADN program. The longer I've been out of school and practicing, the more I appreciate what an excellent nursing education I got in my program. We knew so much more coming out of school than new graduates (of either ADN or BSN programs) do today, it's ridiculous.
However, we all have the same RN license, and I certainly support the idea of university-based nursing education. I worry sometimes that we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater, but, then, nobody asked me what I thought ... :) There are still quite a few diploma programs around, but nowhere near as many as there used to be. On the other hand, a lot of them used to be pretty poor programs, so it's probably a good thing that they've shut down (I happened to luck into a good program, but that doesn't mean they were all strong programs -- as I mentioned, for generations they were seen by a lot of hospitals as a cheap way to staff the hospitals, rather than focusing on providing a good quality nursing education).
What really matters is how good a nurse you are, not where you went to school.
SnoopD - although I think work experience is a component for advancement - you won't get too far w/o at least a BSN and preferably an MSN at least in Magnet hospitals. Both our hospital as well as the one across the street from us are doing the Magnet thing. As the publicity reaches everyone - it is hoped (at least by the ANCC and the Magnet hospitals) that patients will CHOOSE Magnet hospitals.
I don't know what your definition of "too far" is, but I have a diploma in nursing and over 28 years of experience (22 of that in ICU), I have always worked at high acuity, big city, university hospitals. I make top dollar (and have for the last 23 years, get bonus' for good evals, I have been on top of career ladder programs, teach patients and precept new nurses. I am usually in charge, get sent to symposia when I want. I can't imagine where it might have been different if I had a degree or an advanced degree. I am CCRN, ACLS, PALS, and chemo certified. I can take care of open hearts, liver transplants, head traumas, CVVH-D, IABP's, VAD's, multi drips, HFOV, you name it...I've done it and I can probably teach it to someone else. That is the value of experience.
When I wanted to move to Hawaii and get a gov job at a military hospital, they scrabbled to get me, and offered me a recruitment bonus. Not too far? I wouldn't say that!
I don't know what your baseline training might be, but I suspect in 20 years, you'll be able to say the same.
I wondered about the comment about not getting too far without at least a BSN, preferably Masters. With the current shortage of nurses, I don't think a hospital will even try to staff only with BSN and Masters prepared nurses. Also, if getting "far" in nursing means moving up the management ladder, you may be right, but some of us may not want to "move up" that ladder, and prefer to stay at the bedside. I have tried managment, and did not like it and do not ever want to try it again. It has nothing to do with education, money or status. I just don't like it.
In my 30 years of nursing, I can assure the initial poster, that I am probably only aware of the educational attainments of 1% of the nurses I work with. Basic nursing education is not an issue. What you do with it is what counts!
"ANY" degreed nurse has the opportunity to advance their career based on what their goals are for themselves. It doesn't matter "Where" you start in school; what matters is where you plan on finishing for yourself.
Just as a steroid is a steroid is a steroid.........a nurse is a nurse is a nurse. Advance at your own pace, and if the pace you choose isn't doing it for you, then advance some more until you reach the place in your career that satisfies "YOU" and no one else. :)
I graduated from a Diploma Nursing School in 2002. The differences between the diploma program and an ADN program is: the length of time it takes to finish your schooling (2 years ADN program; 3 years Diploma program), the extra non-nursing classes you take in order to get a degree (ADN program), and the set up of which program you choose. An ADN program is taught from a college. You get more book learning than you do hands on learning. A Diploma program is taught from a school associated / affiliated with a hospital close by. You get more hands on experience than book learning. There is still alot of reading books and other materials in a Diploma program. Both programs are equally hard from what I have heard. You have to have dedication and change your priorities for a while in order to survive and get through either program.:uhoh21:
One is not better than the other and your pay scale is not based on where you went to school. It is based on the size of the community and the hospital or nursing home in which you work as well as which field of nursing you choose. I live in a small rural town and drive 30-40 miles one way to where I work, another small rural town, in a nursing home. I "worked" in a Big hospital during nursing school (class rotations in the hospital). I prefer the small town atmosphere where I work. They are more personable and they ALL get to eventually know you (day and night shifts) no matter which shift you work, and the smaller towns' hospitals/nursing homes/ clinics....tend to be more flexible with your schedule and try to accomodate. They need you as much as you need them.
Tell your friend/relative to go jump and that she is full of herself. It is people like that that (have you ever heard the phrase) "EAT THERE OWN", and they drive knew less experienced nurses away.
We need the older more experienced nurse to help nurture our young, not eat them or throw them to the wolves to be eaten.
I digress, The point is both programs are good. In the state where I went to school, there are only 2 (maybe only 1 now) Diploma programs (Lubbock ,TX is where one of them is located). There are more ADN programs because the hospitals/and or states no longer want to help fund the Diploma programs, and there are more colleges/universities around which offer the ADN program. It does not matter which one you choose, you are a NURSE !, reguardless if you have LVN, RN, ADN, BS, MS, or PHD after your name, YOU ARE A NURSE!!! That means we are here to take care of those you can't.
I think the "won't get too far in a Magnet hospital without a BSN" comment reflected that you will always and forever be a staff nurse in a Magnet hospital, without at least a BSN - i.e. no leadership or management positions. If that is what you want, great. If you want a position that is "higher on the totem pole" - you must go back to school first (or work in a hospital with more lenient requirements)
Many nurses have every intention of remaining at the bedside their entire careers. Myself, I know that I will want to move on eventually. Neither ambition is "wrong" or makes anyone a better or worse nurse. It is just a matter of different people wanting different things - perfectly acceptable as it is what keeps us from being little clones, all thinking the same way. What a boring world that would be!
Sorry for the confusion - my statement did include the reference to Magnet hospitals. By "too far" I simply meant to move into management, teaching, staff development, etc.. There are other positions other than management also that require a BSN. My basic level of education is NA, LPN, ADN, BSN and MSN (June 2005). My reason for continuing my education is simple. Life as as a staff nurse (at least at my hospital) is rough. I work in the ER and we are expected to care for the sickest of sick, the not so ill, the everything in between and physically stay on our feet for 12 hours of the 12.5 hours we are on the clock. I realized a few years ago that while I can certainly keep up with those in their 20's now, will I be able to do so at 56 or 66? I just want more options. Realistically, people in my age group are working much longer than our parents.
Redbait - by the way - do you work at the pink hospital on the hill?? Tripler? Have been there several times - once in 89 we were medevac'd there with our son who at that time had severe asthma. Nursing care was excellent.
Redbait - by the way - do you work at the pink hospital on the hill?? Tripler? Have been there several times - once in 89 we were medevac'd there with our son who at that time had severe asthma. Nursing care was excellent.
That's me!! They prefer to call it coral BTW LOL. I work in a combination PICU/ICU. In the morning, at sunrise, the color of the sky matches the buildings of Tripler.
I graduated from a diploma school in 1995. Sadly it closed two years later. I think my education was excellent. We were required to get our A&P, micro, psych, etc. at any college and transferred that in. The actual nursing school took three years. Not only were we taught all of the diseases, hi tech stuff, etc. a big emphasis was placed on basic care of the patient. We were taught that we were not too good to straighten up a patients room, wipe down the bedside tray, etc. Whatever was of benefit to the patient. By graduation I had spent three years of every other weekends (with about 1 month off total for the year) in facilities. We did our clinicals in 12 different places- not just different floors. This taught us how to adapt and see how things were done elsewhere. I think my program prepared my well to go out and get my first job and do well at it. A friend of mine went through diploma school 30 years ago. She actually lived and worked at the hospital while in school. She has seen it all and done it all. Often I come to her for advice.
Ultimately we must all pass the same test to be licensed RNs. In my class we had a 100% pass rate. I am now going back to earn my BSN degree. 30 credits were given for my prior nursing school and 30 credits were given for the other college classes I took while there. I will need some non-nursing classes. BSN nurses spend the first two years taking these types of classes. The core classes are the science, psych, etc. The extras are the ones I don't have. In my program ther are 39 upper division credits required in the nursing area. That means I will need to earn 22 credits in things like lit, history, etc.
I really think all of the backstapping needs to stop. There is no need for it especially since we are having a shortage and all we want to do is take care of the patients. As nurses we all have different areas of strengths and weaknesses. I knew a great OR nurse who loved it. What she hated was the interaction with the patients. Her patients in the OR benefitted because of her expertise. I wouldn't be very useful in that arena.
I am terrible at vp's and starting IV's- just don't have the ability to be great and I know I never will. Before starting an IV I would often get one of the good LPNs at my facility to watch my technique or even start it for me. Many people were horrified that I asked an LPN for help. RN's are able to do more assessments and some technical things that LPNs can't. They all have been educated to VP
I currently work with a great LPN in home health. She is not able to do any of the admissions or recerts, but she's a wonderful home health nurse and teacher to these patients. I have learned from her and she has learned from me.
Those who try to establish a pecking order seem to me to be a little insecure themselves. We are all hcp trying to have the best patient outcome. I am in the process of earning my BSN. The only reason I am doing this is because I want to become a NP and get certification in wound care/ostomy.
As in everything, there are good diploma schools, ADN schools, BSN schools. And there are also bad. We all had to take the NCLEX and I passed after it shut down at 75 questions.
Ignore those that constantly bring up the degree thing. I have seen ADN and diploma nurses that were better at providing good quality care than BSN nurses. We are all nurses and need to unite and work together.
RedBait - actually vacationed in Honolulu last summer - we have a niece stationed at Pearl Harbor...I do love it. When we were there in 1989 (with our then 9 y/o son) the care was very good. We were stationed in Korea at the time and his asthma was set off by the severe air pollution.
Advance at your own pace, and if the pace you choose isn't doing it for you, then advance some more until you reach the place in your career that satisfies "YOU" and no one else. :) 
traumaRUs, MSN, APRN
87 Articles; 21,288 Posts
SnoopD - although I think work experience is a component for advancement - you won't get too far w/o at least a BSN and preferably an MSN at least in Magnet hospitals. Both our hospital as well as the one across the street from us are doing the Magnet thing. As the publicity reaches everyone - it is hoped (at least by the ANCC and the Magnet hospitals) that patients will CHOOSE Magnet hospitals.