NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 20

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from jkaee
    No, CougRN, I don't think the trailer trash comment was lost on a lot of people, but I do think that it certainly discredited the OP quite a bit. I don't think ANYONE that posted is against higher education, IF it was easier to obtain and more reasonable. As a matter of fact, my husband is going soon to take his first actuary test this month (and if you want to talk "higher education", you should see the math that he's studying) but he did not have to go thru half the stuff that I would have to if I went back for my BSN. In fact, the majority of it was completed on his own. I would go back for my BSN at some point if it weren't for the reasons I listed in my previous post. The PROBLEM comes when those with "higher education" look down with scorn to those of us who can't afford to go to school, or don't have the time or the means to do so. They aren't excuses, it's REALITY. I have 3 young kids and one on the way. I work 5 evenings every 2 weeks, my husband works full time with over an hour commute to and from work. My main job in life is a mother, not a nurse. I'm not going to look back on my life and say, "Boy, I sure do wish I spent less time with my children and husband and more time going off to grad school...." And I know my kids want a mom that's there for them, and not one that has a list of initials after her name. And if nursing ever comes to that point, or if I have to "downgrade" my title, then the profession is going to lose one damn good nurse, because I'll be leaving.
    ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh a voice of reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    No one here disparages higher education, no one! Thank you for noticing this!

    But getting it accomplished without a lot of barriers, be they time, money, distance, or convenience, NEEDS to be done IF we are going to get the "other 60%" to buy into this. Why can't so many see this?

    People say "who cares about so and and so in Podunk, or whether she can access BSN education or not?" I say you have to, if you want to press forward with this. The USA is much more dense, population-wise, than Canada is, and our education systems are very different. Even our rural areas net many potential students who can't travel 2 hours to go to school. Comparing Canada to the USA in this way be a bad move unless we adapt to our differences, not automatically adopt their methods. We do differ a bit demographically and in education systems, it would appear.

    In order to make all BSN a reality, we HAVE GOT TO ADDRESS AND REMOVE BARRIERS TO MAKING IT HAPPEN. And that would include those for "Mary in Podunk, Oklahoma", who cannot afford the time and money to drive 150 miles to university to go to school! Helloooooooooooooooooo, the majority of current nurses in practice are over 30. I dont' have to tell you all what that means. Most have families to feed, bills to pay and LIVES TO LIVE outside university education. WE need to stop comparing nursing to OT, PT, MD, and other occupations. Our sheer numbers alone, and our aging demographic, make this a very different situation and arena in which to talk all university education. I say again, we need to do it SMART or not at all.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on May 14, '04
  2. by   mattsmom81
    It isn't elitism for AD and diploma RN's to say "don't devalue me...I've been a practicing RN for years and worked hard for that credential". That's just plain old self respect. Something more nurses should aspire to, IMO, rather than going along with some agenda that states you're only good enough with BSN after your name.

    I DO agree with BSN as entry level for the future of nursing and will support this should it be decided. But throwing out all the good RN's currently out there, 'demoting' them is ridiculous. The current practice of BSN programs is to devalue most other forms of nursing education. Most of my Diploma courses are disregarded...even those I took through a university (beside the premeds, prePT's, etc), because they are associated with a diploma nursing program!! THIS kind of stuff IS elitism.

    I will say this one more time and quit. To imply diploma and AD nurses 'should be' willing to go back to college fulltime for 3 yrs or so for the 'good of the profession' is obnoxious. :angryfire
    Last edit by mattsmom81 on May 14, '04
  3. by   Q.
    Quote from mattsmom81
    It isn't elitism for AD and diploma RN's to say "don't devalue me...I've been a practicing RN for years and worked hard for that credential". That's just plain old self respect.
    It's all a matter of perspective, I suppose. Just as that is what ADN/diploma nurses hear in this argument, as a BSN I hear: "I don't need that useless ivory tower degree that amounts to nothing more than alphabet soup; I am above that and I am far more superior in skill than you'll EVER be simply because I happened to enter the field before you. In other words: You'll NEVER catch up."
  4. by   jkaee
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh a voice of reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    No one here disparages higher education, no one! Thank you for noticing this!

    But getting it accomplished without a lot of barriers, be they time, money, distance, or convenience, NEEDS to be done IF we are going to get the "other 60%" to buy into this. Why can't so many see this?

    People say "who cares about so and and so in Podunk, or whether she can access BSN education or not?" I say you have to, if you want to press forward with this. The USA is much more dense, population-wise, than Canada is, and our education systems are very different. Even our rural areas net many potential students who can't travel 2 hours to go to school. Comparing Canada to the USA in this way be a bad move unless we adapt to our differences, not automatically adopt their methods. We do differ a bit demographically and in education systems, it would appear.

    In order to make all BSN a reality, we HAVE GOT TO ADDRESS AND REMOVE BARRIERS TO MAKING IT HAPPEN. And that would include those for "Mary in Podunk, Oklahoma", who cannot afford the time and money to drive 150 miles to university to go to school! Helloooooooooooooooooo, the majority of current nurses in practice are over 30. I dont' have to tell you all what that means. Most have families to feed, bills to pay and LIVES TO LIVE outside university education. WE need to stop comparing nursing to OT, PT, MD, and other occupations. Our sheer numbers alone, and our aging demographic, make this a very different situation and arena in which to talk all university education. I say again, we need to do it SMART or not at all.

    Thank you, Deb, for taking the time to understand the point I was trying to make!

    For all those that pursue higher degrees, great! We do need nurses that are willing and able to get advanced degrees, and take our profession further.

    That DOES NOT make you a better nurse, necessarily. Some of the most educated people I have met in my lifetime weren't always the smartest people. And just because you get more education does not mean you will do a better job.....the last job I had the administrator's last job was working as a CNA....then she jumped to a NHA. She was young, inexperienced and quite frankly had no idea how to deal with the issues she was faced with. Yes, she furthered her education and received a higher degree, but that did not make her a better employee or leader for our building.

    The problem with the nursing profession, in my opinion, is that there is so much dividing us, and not our level of education.....we don't respect each other, and this is what is keeping us from getting the respect we deserve. Do you know how many times I have heard that LTC nurses "don't know anything", and that we are lousy nurses, and that working LTC is a piece of cake, and why wouldn't I want to do "real nursing"? On the flip side, I had a nursing instructor that thought OR nurses were a waste, since "You could train a monkey to do what they do." (NOT my opinion, just telling you what she told us!) For the most part, many nurses take part in this......acute care bashes LTC, OB nurses have it easy and can't handle real nursing, psych nursing is a joke, and don't even start on Doctor's office nurses......what a waste!

    THIS is why we can't get it together and why we aren't treated with respect. We can't respect each other and each other's specalities, so why should others give us respect when all they hear is us bashing each other?

    Our degree status has little to nothing to do with the amount of respect we get or deserve. I don't get respect because I work in LTC....I could have my NP in geriatrics.....I would still be looked down upon because I'm not in the fast paced world of acute care, or trauma. I have seen this, many times, from many different types of people. This is what is bringing us down.

    I know this went off topic, but this is what I feel is bringing us down as a profession more than the "BSN" debate.
  5. by   Erin RN
    Just for the heck of it, I did a salary wizard search on OT and PT salaries in my area..the median salaries are 52k to 54k..I, as an ADN nurse, will well exceed both of those salaries this year and did exceed them last year. I guess I am just not convinced that the BSN will be of benefit to me, personally. Again, I am not against continuing education as I have stated over and over BUT as I move forward the BSN will NOT be the degree that I seek. IMO education is a personal decision as to what will benefit the student most and which way they want their life to take them. I know nurses who have their bachelors in Health promotion, business admin, biology..all of them attained those degrees for a purpose, to move in a specific direction. The BSN by itself will do little for me professionally. I am not saying that further education would not benefit me only that the BSN would not. As I believe I stated previously, I am currently a case manager with a legal nursing business. I have already done the legal nurse certification, I am working on the life care planning certification then on to the case Management certification..eventually since I would like to do all independently, I am thinking more about a degree in marketing or business...That would be a degree that would round me out much better. Community Health nursing and management classes will not as I never plan on doing hands on nursing again in my lifetime..
  6. by   teeituptom
    Divide and conquer is what they are trying to do and sounds like they might succeed
  7. by   irishnurse67
    Quote from PeninsulaRN
    I agree, and frankly I'm disappointed at the overwhelming majority of posters in this thread. RNs are the least educated members of the healthcare team. I think it would do a lot to improve the solidarity and unity of nurses were there an entry level educational requirement such as a BSN (no more ADNs are just as good as BSNs and LPNs are just as good as RNs... ad nauseum).
    I'm not going to get into the argument of why a baccalaureate education is preferable to an associate's, that should be clear.
    Its a shame that nurses hold education in such low regard. I'm not saying that some ADN or diploma prepared nurses aren't great, competent, professional nurses... they are. However, I think the profession needs to move forward out of a blue collar, task-oriented hourly position into a salaried and professional one.
    But then, my views on salary vs hourly wages and unions vs non-unions are for another thread.
    Actually, I'm going for my BSN right now and ALL the classes I have to take seem to have NOTHING to do w/bedside nursing, which is the type of nursing I do and all I'm interested in doing. I'll wind up w/more "book smarts" but that's it. I think the real learning occurs for a nurse when he/she is out on the floor.
  8. by   tridil2000
    i think a bsn should be the minimum degree a professional nurse has. i also think the adns should be grandfathered in, but nursing should really all get on the same page with this at some point in the future. it's long overdue.

    and i will say it until i die, there is *NO* nursing shortage in america. it is just that NO ONE wants to stay at the bedside, regardless of age or degrees.
  9. by   Diana Lynn
    hi
    i am from canada and it has done nothing here but cause problems..there is a shortage everywhere..not everyone can afford to go to university to become a nurse so enrollment is down...the diploma schools have all closed, it is really a mess......
  10. by   zenman
    Quote from irishnurse67
    Actually, I'm going for my BSN right now and ALL the classes I have to take seem to have NOTHING to do w/bedside nursing, which is the type of nursing I do and all I'm interested in doing. I'll wind up w/more "book smarts" but that's it.
    Well, the "book smarts" are what you want because you can transfer that additional knowledge to the bedside...where it will benefit your patients. Why do people seem to have trouble with this concept? They all want more clinical!

    And yes, the ideal plan for the shortage of any profession is to cut the amount of education. Let's start with physicians...then petition the school board to cut your kids teacher education in half. Who could we do next?
  11. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from zenman
    Well, the "book smarts" are what you want because you can transfer that additional knowledge to the bedside...where it will benefit your patients. Why do people seem to have trouble with this concept? They all want more clinical!

    And yes, the ideal plan for the shortage of any profession is to cut the amount of education. Let's start with physicians...then petition the school board to cut your kids teacher education in half. Who could we do next?
    Those scientists working heroically on cures for cancer, depression, autism, heart disease, diabetes . . . . . . . .

    Good point zenman.

    steph
  12. by   tvccrn
    I haven't read this entire thread becasue I am SO tired of the ADN vs. BSN debate and who is better than whom. The only thing I have to say about this is if the state of NY requires that the ADN's either get their BSN or be reduced to LPN status then they should make the program available to THOSE WHO ALREADY WORK THERE AS ADN's at no charge whatsoever. These nurses are already working as RN's in the state and if the state changes their mind about the minimum requirements, they should foot the bill for the additional education.
  13. by   irishnurse67
    Quote from zenman
    Well, the "book smarts" are what you want because you can transfer that additional knowledge to the bedside...where it will benefit your patients. Why do people seem to have trouble with this concept? They all want more clinical!

    And yes, the ideal plan for the shortage of any profession is to cut the amount of education. Let's start with physicians...then petition the school board to cut your kids teacher education in half. Who could we do next?
    I didn't know my post would incite such an angry response. All I'm saying is that bedside/clinical experience is the best way to become a better nurse, NOT the only way.

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