But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse.
New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN certification-a step that critics worry could serve as a body blow to a profession already facing a severe shortage.
Under the state Board of Nursing proposal, RNs with associate's degrees would have to earn bachelor's degrees within 10 years, or their RN certifications would be downgraded to that of licensed practical nurse. That would make nursing somewhat like teaching in New York state; certified K-12 teachers need master's degrees or must obtain one within three years of starting a job. It would also add years and thousands of dollars to the difficulty of becoming an RN...
I'm sure the writing skills of any group can come into question.
Just as the beginning nursing skills of any new grad can come into question. My point is, generalizations are rarely taken seriously. And shouldn't be used in a debate.
Regarding the per capita need; so, based upon that argument, professional standards are set based upon 2 things: ease of attainment and need of said profession in society. I just don't agree with using those benchmarks for setting our standards for practice.
As far as meetings or being able to do anything besides adding up I&O's; before you scoff off meetings or other areas where writing and speaking correct English are important, remember that it's in those meetings where decisions regarding OUR OWN PRACTICE are made. I don't know about you, but I'd sure like to be at the table for that.
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
This argument saddens me. This is moreso related to the comment (and wasn't sure if it was you or Deb or...?) that nursing schools need to change things and pump out RNs that can walk onto a floor and take a patient load. I mantain that is a huge disservice! I may sound crass, but the belief that that is what schools should do stems from a purely selfish mindset. Nursing education is not a factory that pumps out robots! And nor are we robots who just do tasks!
Again, should professions determine professional standards based upon what is the easiest, most attainable credential for the public to get? (and by easy I don't mean "easy" intellectually; I mean easy as in accessibility) Is that really what we want dictating our standards?
No, it was not me who said that, Suzy to which you refer, but let me address another part of your post here:
In a critical area such as nursing, where vacancies are in double digits in some areas, I DO ARGUE "accessibility" BETTER be addressed if we do go all-BSN. Have you ever worked in the rural setting? Or in an area so critical for nurses? If so, you know what I mean by this. This shortage is not ending any time soon---demographics make it such---- and so yes, programs to train new nurses to replace the thousands set to retire within the next 10-15 years BEST be available and ACCESSIBLE.
I don't get it, Suzy ....you and I have gone around about this before: What problem do you have with accessability????? I did not say dumb down the career; I said make it so people can access the training. There are a lot more nurses than there are Pt'S , OT'S, MD's RT's Pharmacists, etc. And darn straight, we are losing them at very high rates. We can't make comparisions to medicine or other disciplines; nursing programs need to be widely available and easy to access if we are to put a dent in this and future shortages.
What is it you have against making it easy to access education for future nurses? Why make it more cumbersome or harder than it is? It's already hard enough to find a program, gain entry, after waiting up to 2 or 3 years to get in, and then graduate. The attrition rates are horrible. NO one IS DUMBED down who enters nursing, surely you agree. But to make it harder to access programs? Come on now, Let's don't shoot our noses off to spite our faces!uhoh21:
Okay, so I guess no one can write effectively or speak correctly unless they've completed 4 years of college? Puuuullllease! I was an Assistant Vice President at several banks, wrote extensively (memos to manuals) and was use to speaking before groups of 10 to 100 every month or so. And I did that with nothing but a little old high school diploma, never went to college until I was 39.
I truly have nothing against higher education, I'm completing my bachelor's and have applied to a MSN program. What I have a problem with is the inconsistency in nursing education from college to college and the barriers that are thrown up to get the degrees in terms of the curriculum, not to mention the costs involved. If the BSN truly gave more in terms of nursing education, I would welcome it. BUT IT DOESN"T!!!!. It's just more general education classes before you get to the nursing classes! How does that make one a professional nurse?
I precept students in the OR and this last semester I've had all 4th year BSN students who couldn't even give me the basics, like on which side of the abdomen the liver is located. Shouldn't they know this? I had 5 in a row that didn't? You can call that a blanket statement if you chose, I call it a deficiency in education needed to be a nurse that I've experienced first hand over the last few months. They may write beautifully, but that's not where the soul of nursing lies. They have to KNOW how to be a nurse before they go to their meetings. I'm sure there are many fine programs that turn out excellent BSNs. I've been precepting for 4 years and I've seen pretty strong deficiencies in the basics in the bachelor programs I'm involved in. There is a problem with the system and I can't jump on board this train until I see those problems resolved.
I will support the issue of BSN as entry level when they make all programs consistent and when they make it more about nursing than management and community health. When they do that, I will be in total agreement with you.
I've said it once and I'll say it again...If it weren't for the ADN program, I would never even be able to become a nurse. I think that would be the case for many people. I don't have the luxury of time and I would choose a different career, even though I wouldn't like it, that I could complete in 2-3 years.
I still don't get why there is this big commotion if we all take the same boards. They are critical thinking, correct? and are supposed to show if we are really ready to be nurses?
Okay, so I guess no one can write effectively or speak correctly unless they've completed 4 years of college? Puuuullllease! I was an Assistant Vice President at several banks...
Yes, yes, yes. I wasn't really interested in your resume, but the point which you seemed to have missed was about generalizations. Generalizations are just that: generalizations which, in my opinion, have no place in a true debate. I was using the writing skills and a 4 year degree to point out the parallel stance that has been repeated in this thread about BSNs being clinically stupid.
So, yeah. Puuuuuullllease is right.
I've had all 4th year BSN students who couldn't even give me the basics, like on which side of the abdomen the liver is located. Shouldn't they know this? I had 5 in a row that didn't? You can call that a blanket statement if you chose, I call it a deficiency in education needed to be a nurse that I've experienced first hand over the last few months. They may write beautifully, but that's not where the soul of nursing lies.
So, you're basing the entire nursing education system on, lemme see, 5 GNs? And you think the soul of nursing is memorizing things? Again, sorry, but I wholly and completely disagree. Nursing, at least to me, does not lie in tubes and needles and does not lie in reciting by memory anatomical parts. And community health? What do you have against community health? Certainly not my personal cup of tea either, but there are patients out in the community health area and nursing practice actually is the most autonomous in that area.
And Deb, yes I know we've been down this path before about accessibility. And it's not that I'm trying to make it "harder" or that I think it will dumb down the education. My stance is that I just don't see the validity to making requirements and standards decisions about a profession based upon if Mary Jane from PoDunk, Nowhere can get to the university.
It's something we'll just have to agree to disagree on.
Okay, so I guess no one can write effectively or speak correctly unless they've completed 4 years of college? Puuuullllease! I was an Assistant Vice President at several banks, wrote extensively (memos to manuals) and was use to speaking before groups of 10 to 100 every month or so. And I did that with nothing but a little old high school diploma, never went to college until I was 39.
I truly have nothing against higher education, I'm completing my bachelor's and have applied to a MSN program. What I have a problem with is the inconsistency in nursing education from college to college and the barriers that are thrown up to get the degrees in terms of the curriculum, not to mention the costs involved. If the BSN truly gave more in terms of nursing education, I would welcome it. BUT IT DOESN"T!!!!. It's just more general education classes before you get to the nursing classes! How does that make one a professional nurse?
I precept students in the OR and this last semester I've had all 4th year BSN students who couldn't even give me the basics, like on which side of the abdomen the liver is located. Shouldn't they know this? I had 5 in a row that didn't? You can call that a blanket statement if you chose, I call it a deficiency in education needed to be a nurse that I've experienced first hand over the last few months. They may write beautifully, but that's not where the soul of nursing lies. They have to KNOW how to be a nurse before they go to their meetings. I'm sure there are many fine programs that turn out excellent BSNs. I've been precepting for 4 years and I've seen pretty strong deficiencies in the basics in the bachelor programs I'm involved in. There is a problem with the system and I can't jump on board this train until I see those problems resolved.
I will support the issue of BSN as entry level when they make all programs consistent and when they make it more about nursing than management and community health. When they do that, I will be in total agreement with you.
I agree with you wholly on this post and I DO see the importance of a nurse knowing where anatomical parts are located...It wouldn't matter if an individual had a PhD in nursing if a MD were aware that this nurse did not know basic anatomy and physiology no degree in existence would make him or her a professional in the eyes of the higher ups. I also see Suzy's point about broad generalizations and agree that they aren't credible when looking at entire profession but by the same token the broad generalization that the BSN will provide us the "professional" title we all seem to need so badly isn't all that credible either, this problem is multi faceted, in my opinion.
I agree with Deb regarding access to education and in my opinion there is just no way you can compare nursing with journalism, law or medicine just based on the sheer numbers of nurses required in order for our healthcare system to survive. I do think that Jane Doe from Podunk wherever needs to be taken into consideration..chances are there are several hundred other people (patients) living right there with her. Who is going to staff that little community hospital?
There was another poster here who indicated if we all take the same boards why not make the entry level BSN? We could look at this from the opposite as well..if we all take the same boards and ADNs and Diploma nurses have managed to pass them and go onto rewarding/ competent careers in nursing why do we NEED to make the BSN mandatory?
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Suzy, I am fairly certain of this much: if you were Jane Doe from Podunk (and i know you live in a major midwestern city, so it's hard for you to understand)---or you were Ms. Doe's patients, I think suddenly, accessiblity would be a major issue for you!. You see, if it were not accessible for me, I would not be a nurse today. And not to brag, or maybe so, I think that would be nursing's loss more than my own. JMO and yes we do disagree on it. It's easy to say all this sitting in a metro area where universities sit on every other mile marker and compete for students. NOT so where I took my training in rural Oklahoma........and people drove up to an hour just to get an ADN or get to the hospital.
What is sad to me, is this (all BSN requirement for entry) will likely happen without real thought or viable plan in place, first. I am not against BSN preparation for professional nursing you see. But like I said before, we need to do it smartly. And like so many things, I worry that.....yes I would say poor planning and disenfranchising some worry me a lot.
It will not come to pass. BSN programs are lacking in hands on. They center on menagement.....We have enough of them already.....
give me a break. they don't spend most of the time focusing on management. besides clinicals we spent most of our time learning how to incoporate research into our practice to make us better nurses. i can really see how that is bad, please.
Actually no, its not enough. What is required here is intelligent discourse between professional people, not a throwing up of hands and sentiments remarkably similar to "Screw you guys I'm going home".
My opinion doesn't necessarily equate with a high horse, either. I merely maintain that education is important.
So go on thinking I'm posting from an academic ivory tower, if you must. It has already been said in a number of posts the importance of grandfathering in existing ADN nurses so as not to demote them to the level of a practical nurse, and so I'm not taking food from your table by advocating higher education.
i have not finished reading this thread but felt compelled to respond: i do agree, in a perfect world, that nursing education should be standardized. i have worked with many degreed (bsn and up) nurses and adn nurses. if i'm forced to generalize, i will take the adn nurse hands down BUT that is specific to the nurses i am thinking of. furthermore, there are tons of nurses who educate themselves without being degreed. it is within themself to want to know why, how, rationales, etc. these nurses read on their own time; they explore; they're impassioned and thrive to learn as much as possible. it is not merely a task to us, but it's imperative to understand why you're doing what you're doing. it's no secret that nurses can and are held accountable if they don't question an iffy md order and in order to question, you need a knowledge base. for me, i am a professional learner but i am not degreed. i have also met several degreed people who were superficial, pompous ingrates.
in spite of having their degrees, they are still not 'professional'. if a bsn is mandated, it certainly better be grandfathered and the current nsg. shortage had better be resolved. the last crisis we need right now is even less enrollment in nursing school. so yes, i am for higher education when it is relevant to nsg. but again, keep in mind, there are many of us that educate ourselves at home and don't feel we need the bachelors to vindicate our nursing capabilities.
Oh, I see. We only generalize when it's to our benefit, such as this degree will make everything rosey for everyone. Okay, I didn't know the rules here. Sorry for the post.
Oh, I see. We only generalize when it's to our benefit, such as this degree will make everything rosey for everyone. Okay, I didn't know the rules here. Sorry for the post.
what is to whose benefit??? and whose talking rosey? i just mentioned standardization. i don't know, maybe you weren't referring your post to me but if you were, reread it, will ya?
what is to whose benefit??? and whose talking rosey? i just mentioned standardization. i don't know, maybe you weren't referring your post to me but if you were, reread it, will ya?
No Earle58, it was not to you, sorry. The reply was to Suzy.
Q.
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Just as the beginning nursing skills of any new grad can come into question. My point is, generalizations are rarely taken seriously. And shouldn't be used in a debate.
Regarding the per capita need; so, based upon that argument, professional standards are set based upon 2 things: ease of attainment and need of said profession in society. I just don't agree with using those benchmarks for setting our standards for practice.
As far as meetings or being able to do anything besides adding up I&O's; before you scoff off meetings or other areas where writing and speaking correct English are important, remember that it's in those meetings where decisions regarding OUR OWN PRACTICE are made. I don't know about you, but I'd sure like to be at the table for that.