BSN as entry into practice; why we decided against it. - page 2

While hopefully avoiding stoking the ADN - BSN debate unnecessarily, I thought I'd share my experience with my state's consideration of BSN as entry into practice, as well as the BSN-in-10... Read More

  1. 7
    Quote from brandy1017
    Thank you! It's a vindication for all of us ADN's out there doing the same job as a BSN. If the hospitals really want BSN's let them pay for them ie full tuition reimbursement, not a piddly $2,000 year!
    Of course you all passed the same boards.

    I have always felt that the BSN push was financially motivated.

    Thanks MunoRN!!!!
    tntrn, Kandy83, gardenwalker, and 4 others like this.

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  2. 5
    Without going on for 1000 words, OP's state is very different than my state on almost every point:
    • Significant prereq differences in BSN favor
    • Large GPA difference in BSN favor as BSN programs are merit based while nearly all ASN programs are minimum->waitlist admission
    • Slightly more to massively more clinical hours in BSN programs
    • Massive hospital BSN preference or requirement, especially for NG RNs
    • Major or exclusive preference for BSN students in clinical placement and internship offerings
    • Accelerated, traditional, and flexible BSN programs for professional and second career students
    • etc etc etc.
    That said, I'd love to see how OP "properly" corrected Aiken's "failed" math and upon what OP based the correction factors?
    Last edit by SummitRN on Nov 17, '12
    acerbia, annietart, mystory, and 2 others like this.
  3. 7
    The Massachusetts Nurses' Association does not support BSN as entry least they didn't the last time I researched it. I went to a diploma/hospital based school and have never been denied a job because I don't have a BSN (I do have a BA but that's another story). I was asked once years ago to go to work for the VNA. When I told the woman who asked me I didn't have a BSN and all their ads said it was a requirement, she laughed and said "I'd rather hire nurse who knows what they're doing than hire someone just because they have 3 more initials." There is room in our profession for all levels of education. We all have to pass the same boards. I am in favor of education for all of us, but let's not deny someone a job because they can't quote Shakespeare or don't know where the Yangtzi River is.
    Kandy83, SnfRn, green&uninformed, and 4 others like this.
  4. 1
    Not sure how true this is, but the College that I am currently working towards My ADN with claims that they have a significantly higher pass rate of the NCLEX than the 4 yr University's BSN graduates do. So I guess the real question would be "How accurately does the NCLEX test those entering the nursing profession?"

    If ADN nurses were truly less safe practicing nurses BSN-only would certainly be the law in New York and Pennsylvania by now, and North Dakota wouldn't have repealed theirs, the onlyIf the NCLEX is a fair gauge of a new grads knowledge, then I would the imagine that the BSN would not be necessary for an entry level Nursing position.

    It MAY, however be necessary to pick up a management position...
    You bring an interesting point up here, because the concerned parties involved haven't proportionally weighed in to the degree the advocates of BSN laws have. The ANA has had over 40 years to convince state governments to change the law. The state is charged with keeping it's citizens free from harm, which they can do with zest when they are lobbied to death by a special interest group, like azar on your apples. I think it's fair to ask why they haven't, except for North Dakota, who repealed their law.

    To the "entry-level" designation In it's original position paper, the ANA proposed that there be two categories of RN with separate scopes of practice - the "professional" RN and the "technical" RN. Since the NCLEX is still the same for both, there is no evidence-based way to separate the groups by adding questions only the BSN nurse is expected to know earn a separate designation and wider scope of practice.

    We are all subject to the vagaries of the economy and public policy, and intangible judgments and beliefs. Aiken's conclusions (agree it's worth reading) haven't been proved or disproved, so it's possible there is a causal relationship. It's intuitive to believe more education = better. We need to know why and how before changing laws that would have such a profound impact on both the employee and the employer.

    At the present time hospitals prefer BSNs because there is no nursing shortage, and intangibles are acted on just as hard facts are, so going for the BSN will benefit your job prospects and widen opportunities regardless. They just don't want their hands tied legally should the present situation reverse itself, when they don't see much risk with the ADN nurse, having around 60% of working RNs of recent years ADN nurses.
    Last edit by nursel56 on Nov 17, '12 : Reason: bad eyesight typo
    SummitRN likes this.
  5. 3
    I'm against BSN as an entry to practice. I'm not against getting a BSN in 10 years. I have never understood the uproar about it. 10 years is plenty of time. Community colleges are a cost effective way to get an RN license. I don't think that should be taken away.

    Also, if every "Tom, Dick, and Harry has it these days", then I don't see what the big deal is. In many other professions, you need to get at least a bachelors and even a masters degreee. Nursing shouldn't get left behind.
    Kandy83, citylights89, and SummitRN like this.
  6. 0
    The hospital I just signed on with requires a bachelors in 5 years. At their tuition reimbursement rate per year, it may take me 5 years to complete the one year program. After paying for my LPN and LPN to ADN programs out of pocket, I am very interested in having the rest of my education sponsored.
  7. 5
    MunoRN- great post. I'm glad some one finally came out with stating an argument against the plausabilty of Akein's recommendation on BSN required. This has shut alot of us out of jobs and in an economy where so many people are going under financially which is making it even more unattainable for alot of us ADN/diploma nurses to get that BSN to get that job to keep the roof over our heads and food on the table. Yes, there are states in this country who have not jumped on this happy crap bandwagon and make BSN the starting requirement for "a Job" But there are states in this country who have! I happen to live in one and have another boardering along side of me which makes it impossible to get a job unless one wants to pull up roots and move to a state where an ADN/diploma can get a freeking job. And like already posted- that is not a relist tatic if one has a home( try selling your old home that needs expensive repairs in this housing market!!) and a bunch of kids in school and a husband with an immovable job. You all may be on the side of road with your pillows and blankets and a "HOMELESS" sign. That is reality!!! The average nurse doesn't have wiggle room for this frivolity of Akein's Ivy league educationals tastes in nursing requirements. Any one look up the cost of tuition in Akein's University of Pennsylvaina Nursing program lately??
    I have said many times on this site that going back for a BSN is all nice, but if one doesn't have the financial means to do so than it remains a fantacy. Give the nurse a job first and then ask them to go and spend the money on an expensive education to keep you friends in academia employed! You can't get blood from a rock. A nurse on unemployment can not afford to forego the food on the table or the roof over the families head for college tuition!! That is pretty much common sense. And with the demands made in Akein's study, it pretty much apparent that woman never had a poor day in her life where she had to make such choices- how nice for her!!

    I did an agency assignemnt yesterday and came in contact with a nursing supervisor in a LTC facility who stated the same thing I have been yelling about in this site for months- many nurses in this economy can not afford to go back to school for that BSN. So I know I am not alone in this sentiment.
    To address the second point of Muno's post- I have sence gone back for my BSN on state aid through the help of unemployment because I cannnot afford it out of pocket.( and what is that doing to the economy Mr/Mrs MBA's) Can I honestly say that these BSN courses are making me a better nurse. NO. are they teaching me anything about Health Assessment I didn't learn in my diploma school and after 32 years of practice experience, NO! What am I learning? "APA format!!!" Which I know all my patients right after surgery and a good boust of diahrrea are really going to ask me about because it is vital to their "outcome"!!!! and eventual discharge to home. The APA police will be transporting them home. I have learned about the readiness of a system to begin a new telehealth program. Here is another must know for a patient who needs to get out of bed to go to the bathroom. if they can click the TV remote, their ready for that ambulation! but first I have to ask all on the unit if they agree a change is needed and then go to the providers and the organization to check and see what level of readiness they are at, because their readiness goals and that of the patient may be different. Happy BSN, ya'all.
    tntrn, MBARNBSN, Spidey's mom, and 2 others like this.
  8. 1
    I have commented before that we have decades of evidence that demonstrates clearly that a BSN is not required to be a competent and effective bedside nurse.

    Should professionals continue their education, surely.
    nursel56 likes this.
  9. 7
    Quote from CapeCodMermaid
    . When I told the woman who asked me I didn't have a BSN and all their ads said it was a requirement, she laughed and said "I'd rather hire nurse who knows what they're doing than hire someone just because they have 3 more initials."
    I cant stand this type of argument. Why is it always assumed that BSN's DONT know what they are doing?!? All these posts from ADN's stating "My ADN school had more clinical hours", "My community college school is sooooo much better than the university." "ADN's know more than BSN's"

    Well how about this? MY BSN school has more clinical hours, better NCLEX pass rate and prepares students to be better nurses than the local community college.....but no, that would be an inflammatory remark.
  10. 4
    I've had exactly the same experience. No one wants to hear that in many places, BSN students have the same number or more clinical hours. Not that I think it makes that much difference anyway, a piddling difference in clinical hours. Both an ADN and a BSN get so many more hours in their first month of orientation as to render the clinical hours done during school almost meaningless. Clinical hours are a taste; you learn the clinical aspects of nursing during orientation and during your first year on the job.

    Diploma-prepared nurses are an entirely different ballgame, because their number of clinical hours is exponentially more. In comparison, every BSN and ADN program is effectively the same.

    In the end, I think how successful a nurse is depends on two things: first and foremost, it depends on the person. Second, it depends on the support that nurse gets during orientation and the first year.
    brandy1017, citylights89, sosweetrn, and 1 other like this.

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