Why so reluctant to give pain meds?

Nurses Medications

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Hello!

I just got off a busy night shift and I am feeling frustrated by one of the nurses I work with in regard to controlling a patient's pain.

Quick background on me - I am an LPN working as a CNA on a Rehab and Skilled unit at a hospital where they do not hire LPN's. I work homecare as an LPN. I will graduate from an ADN program in 3 weeks.

So...the issue I am wondering about is the reluctance to use the pain medications that the doctor has prescribed for a patient. We currently have a patient on our unit recovering from bilateral total knee replacement. She is female, 50's, a little heavy but not morbidly so, and she has a lot of pain. She is on our unit because she needs more time to recover and some PT to get these new knees working well enough to be safe at home. We put on her bil CPM machines at about 5am each morning. As a CNA, I make sure she is toileted before we do this, as we want her on the machines for 2 hours. I also think she should have pain meds about 30 minutes before CPM application, or right before if we are giving them IV.

For 2 nights in a row now, I have had the nurse assigned to this patient balk at the idea of giving her pain meds before putting on the CPM's. One of them gave her an oral pill at 4:30am, but when we got her up to the bathroom at 5:15am she was moaning in pain and talking about how much it hurt her to move. When she was back in bed at 0530, the nurse asked her about her pain, and said something like, "Do you want something for pain? I know you have been trying to get away from the IV meds," and then just went on with the interaction without giving the patient a chance to answer. As we were finishing up, the patient was still moaning and saying she hurt, and the nurse just said, "Call us if you need anything" and left the room. I followed her and told her that I thought the patient needed something because she was still moaning in pain. The nurse told me again how the patient had refused some pain meds earlier in the night when she was not in pain, and had been "playing on her computer" at another time, like this justified not giving pain meds. I guess I bugged the nurse enough because she did take her down some IV dilaudid.

Note: this patient has no documented history of addiction or any problems r/t opioid meds.

On the second night, before I ever saw the patient, I hear her nurse (a different nurse) complaining to the charge nurse about how the patient says she is having so much pain but that she (the nurse) does not want to give any IV pain meds. I know that patients have to adapt to using PO meds before they go home, but this lady is only up to 65 degrees on her CPMs - she is not going home that soon. I don't know how the pain med administration went for most of the night, but this time it was 5am when I went to toilet her before CPMs. Before I went, I asked the nurse if the pt had been given pain meds. She said she had her oral pill at 0330 (sorry, not sure what it was, but something like Norco), and then "something else" so she should be fine. But again, when we got her up to the bathroom she was moaning and continually saying how much her knees hurt. She had ice packs on when we walked in, and we put fresh ice packs on with the CPMs. It was 0520 when I approached her nurse and told her the patient was in pain and asking for pain medication. The nurse seemed very annoyed. But I think she did go down and give her something. I looked at her MAR and saw that the last thing she had been given was flexoril.

OK - so I know there are probably variables that I don't know about. Since I was working as an aide I did not read this patient's whole history. But I DID ask the nurse tonight WHY we shouldn't give her any pain meds and she said there are people who go home 2 days after knee surgery and they only use PO meds, and that by allowing her to use the IV meds we are letting her "go backwards" in her progress toward home. To me this is not a valid reason, as the patients who are healthy and strong enough to go home 2 days after surgery do not come to our unit. They come to our unit for pain control, recovery time and therapy to help them get stronger.

I guess I am looking for some insight, because I will be a new practicing RN soon and I feel that good pain management is important for these ortho patients if we want them to use their CPMs and do their therapies. I know we don't want respiratory depression, kidney problems, or people who are too dopey to get up in the morning. If the pain meds cause delirium I know we try to decrease doses or change meds. This lady has no therapy scheduled for today and breakfast doesn't come until 0745. She has had no confusion. Why are these nurses so hesitant to get her pain under control?

Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.

I haven't read all of the responses, I have been nursing long enough to know that there are medical and nursing professionals everywhere who are just as engaged in treating their own biases and fears relative to prescribing or administering opiates as there are professionals treating the pain of the patients. I became acutely aware of this when working in Home Care where I frequently visited patients who had very poor quality of life secondary to their ongoing and chronic pain and uncontrolled acute exacerbations. I was rarely successful in achieving improved pain control for those patients, they simply suffered because their providers did not think it was appropriate to increase dosage or rotate meds, they were afraid.

If the med is ordered and the patient is experiencing pain, please medicate them.

Specializes in Care Coordination, MDS, med-surg, Peds.

I had shoulder surgery several years ago, a torn rotator. Now, I am tough,(LOL) and have had several surgeries in my life, mostly ortho, but I have to say that rotator surgery is entirely miserable and PAINFUL. While I was in recovery, they gave me IV demerol( allergic to MS04), and that worked for a short time. Then when I started hurting again before I got out of recovery, the RR nurse encouraged me to take PO Percocet.

BAD BAD mistake. It helped, but later, when I was in a room, waiting to see if I was to be admitted or not, and my shoulder started hurting badly and when I asked for a shot of something, I was told, well, you had PO percocet, that should have taken care of it....... I had to call the DR myself and tell him I was in pain, before the nurse brought anything. She brought IM demerol, and boy howdy did that hurt in my thigh!!!! The nurses rational was that since I had taken pain meds PO, I would not require IV or IM again. I was sent home on PO percocet PRN q 6 hours.

Compare that to my knee surgery a few years later.... Epidural x 24 hours, PO oxycodone q 12 and percocet q 4 scheduled times 3 days, then the percocets were PRN and the oxy was q 12 for a total of 5 days. MUCH better pain relief..

Specializes in Skilled Nursing/Rehab.

Thank you so much for all of your thoughtful replies. I was afraid I would get a negative response because maybe my post sounded judgmental.

In this scenario, the patient was post-op day #4. Usually on our unit pts have a set-up or scheduled dose of a PO pain med (like Norco), a continuous release PO pain med, and something ordered PRN for break through pain. This pt has been on our unit before recovering from back surgery, and the nurses tell me she had a lot of pain then, as well. Perhaps this is why her doctor still has orders in for IV pain meds PRN for break through pain.

We are a Magnet designated hospital, and within the past 4 months we had an inservice at an all-staff meeting about pain control. We get performance feedback from patients and my unit manager is really good about passing this info along to us - we did not score well on pain control last time!

I will admit that I did not look through all of this patient's orders - when I work as a CNA on nights, I am generally too busy taking people to the bathroom to read the patient histories! And that's OK because it is my job right now. But thank you for all of the information about pain control! I am hoping to work on this unit and I want to be informed so that perhaps I can help change this culture (if it is a unit culture thing.) I think there are nurses on my unit who believe in good pain control and practice it. I just happened to have 2 nights with 2 nurses who were kind of stingy with the pain meds. Part of it may also be that these two nurses tend to get overwhelmed with tasks and stressed because they have trouble getting things done in a timely manner. That stress of having to add another task may have influenced their responses. However, I don't think that's a good excuse!

Thanks again for your replies! This has been very informative. Only 3 weeks until I graduate!! So ready!

Specializes in Skilled Nursing/Rehab.

P.S. We are taught in school that pain is what the patient says it is and that not even vital signs (except resp depression) should be used as "proof" that a pt is not in pain. And yet, I have classmates who make comments under their breath about people being med seekers. I don't want those classmates caring for me post-op!!

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
After reading the above, and the OP I have to wonder, where in the heck did these nurses go to nursing school? It's shocking to me.

Also I have to assume that their performance evaluations (and thus raises) are NOT dependent

how well they do their jobs. Those facilities must not have RN surveyors walking around the hospital assessing patient's pain levels and marking down which nurses & physicians are not doing a good job with pain control and these marks are not being reflected in their performance evals.

NO one ever asked....it is on the hospital eval and I will be filling that out but no one ever asked.

Heck after emergent surgery, intubation, and unstable vitals.....I never saw respiratory either to instruct the incentive spirometer either. NO one even asked if I was doing it. I was so focused t get out of there....I can't even tell you.

Don't get me wrong. Most of my care was wonderful. Most of the nurses were caring wonderful nurses who cared for me with heart and a gentle touch. I felt safe and releaved to be on the road to recovery...but this pain discrimination and attitude from some nurses leaves me speechless. I saw it as a patient and as a supervisor. It just boggles my mind.

Specializes in Acute Care Pediatrics.

I have yet to meet a nurse that will not medicate for fear of addiction.... Interesting that these nurses actually exist! I find myself educating patients over and over again (and their parents) that treating pain with narcotics isn't going to set them up for drug addiction.

I work on an ortho floor, and we do work hard to transition patients to po pain meds - because they will go home on these meds. While I would never hesitate to medicate with an IV med if needed, I am not sure I would in this situation. I find that IV MEDS are short lived and not as effective in a rehab situation as a nice extended release PO med. I do think as nurses we owe it to our patients to be upfront and honest about pain. I think we set them up with this notion that they will be pain free post op because of all this miracle medication, and that's just not the case. Getting up on two replaced knees is going to HURT. We can medicate and medicate and medicate - but unless we just snow them to the point that they can not stand, there will always be some pain during recovery. Our goal is to manage the pain, but it's going to hurt. I find it's important to keep stressing the fact that all this painful rehab they do is for a goal: they will heal faster, and be pain free quicker. Sitting in bed snowed on dilaudid isn't going to speed up your recovery process.

Every situation is different, and of course as nurses we have to assess every patient on their own sets of unique circumstances. But I hate the pain control myth.... I feel like sometimes we set these patients up to fail. They expect to be pain free, and that's just not realistic.

I kno that everyone here thinks I am a terrible preceptor and probably a bad nurse due to some of my posts, but let me tell you. IF THE PATIENTS SAYS THEY GOT PAIN, THEY GOT PAIN! I teach my precepts and students that the first thing you do after getting g report is check when the last had their pain meds, and know when they can have them again. Secondly while making rounds on patients, if the pt asks for pain meds and they can have them GO GET THEY RIGHT NOW. The pt will thank you the family will thank you and chances are you will have a quiet shift that night with that patient. It shows you listen to them. If you think they swallow just drug seeking...who cares. I am not going to be able to change that behavior in my shift and I will not be able to get someone addicted in a few days. The doc orders it, I will give it if they can have it. No judgement here.

Some places already count Tramadol...LOL

We do.

Specializes in PCCN.

If its ordered I give it.As long as it's time. If not working, I call.

Nurses are worried about addicting someone??Wow.None of their business. They should only worry about keeping an airway.

I recently had some one on Q2hour po dilaudid 4 mg.That person had a good doc.

Specializes in Med nurse in med-surg., float, HH, and PDN.
I kno that everyone here thinks I am a terrible preceptor and probably a bad nurse due to some of my posts, but let me tell you. IF THE PATIENTS SAYS THEY GOT PAIN, THEY GOT PAIN! I teach my precepts and students that the first thing you do after getting g report is check when the last had their pain meds, and know when they can have them again. Secondly while making rounds on patients, if the pt asks for pain meds and they can have them GO GET THEY RIGHT NOW. The pt will thank you the family will thank you and chances are you will have a quiet shift that night with that patient. It shows you listen to them. If you think they swallow just drug seeking...who cares. I am not going to be able to change that behavior in my shift and I will not be able to get someone addicted in a few days. The doc orders it, I will give it if they can have it. No judgement here.

BRAVO! Good for you!

I have been taken to task by peers for PRN medicating, but I say the same as the doc said to me once: Is it ordered? Is it time? Then GIVE IT! It is your job. Unless the resp rate or LOC is markedly depressed (yes, yes, I know there are other reasons, but these two are so basic) give the med. The doc will step the patient down; we all know there are laws and protocols the docs have to follow when writing or re-writing orders, and you certainly can discuss or report your observations/opinions, but we surely must know EVERY patient is different.....and the issue(s) will be addressed if they are present. But, I say to the righteous/self-righteous nurse, right now may not be the time to push your agenda on the matter.

if its ordered, and the vitals are stable, I give it. Your pain and my pain are different. I had my gallbladder out and asked only for Tylenol for a headache (post anesthesia). My neighbor (same surgery) was getting Q2 dilaudid. I have drug seekers all the time that come in with "abdominal pain" - CT negative, blood work negative, MRI negative for anything acute- they get Q4 dilaudid or morphine, I give it to them as long as they're breathing.

Specializes in Skilled Nursing/Rehab.

PedsRN - I agree that patients (esp. joint replacement and back surgery pts) need to be educated more pre-op about the fact that they WILL have pain, and it will be intense. So many pts I see on our Rehab/Skilled Unit seem so shocked and disappointed at the fact that they are in pain. I feel their surgeons should be more up front about this with them before surgery. HOWEVER - I plan to medicate as much as I can for pain, so they can do their therapies and get better faster. I don't want them "snowed" - they can't do therapy like that, either! But I will believe them when they say they are in pain. I think around the clock dosing is brilliant and will advocate for my pts to keep this up through the night to prevent 5am intense pain.

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