BSN's deliver safer care than ADN's??

Nurses Activism

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Now, I am all for further education, but I think this study is skewed. I truly don't see how they have come to the conclusion that taking more courses in the humanities and other such non-nursing related courses is going to produce a more competent bedside nurse. The core nursing cirriculum for most ADN and BSN programs is quite similar in my experience. I can see where the BSN nurse may have it over the ADN in managerial type roles, but as a bedside nurse? I think lots more studies need to be done before this quick conclusion is drawn. One factor that may affect nursing in this negative way is the poor economy. Maybe it is that some people are going into nursing just because it will almost guarantee them employment and don't really want to be in nursing and therefore are not as dedicated as nurses? These people may not want to go for the BSN. I don't know...that is just something I am throwing out there because this makes no sense to me. I don't want to start the old BSN vs. ADN war, but this is news and I was wondering, what do you all think?

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030923-050052-9024r

WASHINGTON, Sept. 23 (UPI) -- The ongoing nursing shortage in the United States has forced some hospitals to rely on nurses with less than a college education as they scramble to fill vacancies but new research suggests the practice can yield deadly consequences for patients.

The study, the first of its kind, reveals patients undergoing surgeries at hospitals where a greater proportion of nurses have obtained a bachelor's or higher degree experienced a lower rate of death than patients at hospitals where most nurses had only associate degrees.

Such findings have implications not only for patients but also for how nursing schools, hospitals and even the U.S. Congress should address the nursing shortage, Linda Aiken, a nurse and lead investigator of the study, told United Press International.

These institutions have made efforts to address the nursing shortage by facilitating the rapid training of nurses via associate degree programs, but the study indicates in the long-run the strategy might be worse for both patients and hospitals, said Aiken, who is director of the center for health outcomes and policy research at the University of Pennsylvania's School of Nursing in Philadelphia.

It underscores the need to find ways to increase the numbers of nurses graduating from bachelor degree programs, she said, noting some hospitals studied did not employ a single nurse with a bachelor's or higher degree.

In the study, which is published in the Sept. 24 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, Aiken's team examined patient data from 168 Pennsylvania hospitals over a 19-month period beginning in 1998. They found, all other factors being equal, hospitals where 60 percent of the nurses held a bachelor's degree or higher had a 19-percent lower rate of surgical patients dying within 30 days of admission or dying from complications than hospitals where only 20 percent of nurses had higher degrees.

The authors estimate if all the hospitals in the study could meet the 60-percent, bachelor's-degree-or-higher threshold, 725 patient deaths could have been prevented over the study period.

The differences in patient mortality rates "are stunning and should make people very concerned," Geraldine Bednash, a registered nurse and executive director of the American Association of Colleges of Nursing, told UPI. "One of the first questions (patients) ought to ask people in a hospital is what is the proportion of their nurses with bachelor's degrees, and if it's not 60 percent or higher, I'd be very concerned about going into that hospital," Bednash said.

The higher rate of patient deaths associated with lower education level is compounded by the fact that "all of the federal government's projections about the nursing shortage over the past decade have not only projected a shortage of nurses but a severe shortage of baccalaureate degreed nurses," Aiken said. At present, less than half of all hospital staff nurses across the nation hold bachelor's degrees or higher.

"Policymakers seem to think we just need to get nurses out fast," but that is not good for hospitals or patients, Bednash said, suggesting legislators should focus on developing ways to produce more nurses with bachelor degrees because "it makes a difference in people's care and whether or not they live or die."

President George W. Bush signed the Nurse Reinvestment Act into law in 2002 in an effort to remedy the nursing shortage and Congress will likely authorize no more than $163 million for fiscal year 2004. But this falls far short of the $250 million the American Association of Colleges of Nursing estimated would be needed to address the problem.

"To date, we've had mostly a symbolic response from Congress," Aiken said, noting the money the legislative body has appropriated is "not a sufficient amount to close the nursing shortage."

Hospitals also have a role to play in addressing the problem, however, Aiken continued. They should "subsidize continued education to the nurses because there is a return to the hospital in terms of greater productivity and better patient outcomes," she said. But many hospitals do not seem to recognize the value of more education in their nurse because many have discontinued tuition reimbursement programs to help their nurses obtain bachelor's or advanced degrees, she said.

Aiken also noted the study found nursing experience was not associated with lower mortality rates of patients. "It's the educational level that's important and experience alone cannot achieve the same level of benefit for the patient as education plus experience," she said.

Joan Hrubetz, dean of the school of nursing at Saint Louis University, said as medical treatments become even more sophisticated, hospitals "will need nurses with advanced education to be able to deal with the kinds of treatments and diagnostics" that likely would be developed in the era of genetics and molecular-based medicine. "I don't think there's any question we need better trained nurses," Hrubetz told UPI.

Nevertheless, hospitals appear to be reluctant to make any changes based on this single study.

"Hospitals are very interested in studies such as this ... but it really needs to have further studies done because this really only represents one state," Rita Turley, president of the American Organization of Nurse Executives -- a subsidiary of the American Hospital Association -- told UPI.

The good news is although enrollment rates in baccalaureate nursing programs had been down over the past decade, they now appear to be on the rise. In addition, many schools are offering rapid training programs, in which holders of bachelor degrees in other fields can obtain a bachelor's degree in nursing in approximately one year, which may help increase the number of people joining the nursing profession.

Specializes in LTC, Post OP.
I went to a 3yr ADN program at $54.00 a credit hour vs 4yr BSN program at $120.00 a credit hour. I got the ADN first and the hospital where I'll work at will pay for degree completion. ADN's have to pass the same NCLEX as a BSN. For what it's worth, the big difference I've noticed in my area...BSN: less clinical, more theory, more management, more paperwork, expensive, not convenient for non-traditional students, degree respected...ADN: more clinical, less theory, less management, less paperwork, less expensive, more convenient scheduling, no 'ooh ahh' factor. Each program has its strong points and weak points. As far as ADN vs BSN working in the hospitals...people believe that as long as hospitals can pay CNA's/UPA's a lower wage, there will never be a push to hire more expensive, higher educated personnel by hospitals. What's happened in my area to LPN's at a local hospital...they were offered lower wages and a non-nursing title or the opportunity to continue to an ADN. So it's coming...the ADN will be the new LPN...the LPN will be the CNA. Probably without much pay increase either. I'll have the opportunity to continue to BSN. I plan to do so. The only catch is a 1-3yr contract to work for that institution. If there are lay offs, one has to legally accept a lower position/lower pay or repay the tution to the institution. Still it's a big savings.

I have heared this over and over, from old RN"s and LPN's they all laugh at this happening anytime soon if ever, i figure by the time this go in to effect, i will be a retired nurse :rotfl: and i am just 26 years old JMO

I have heared this over and over, from old RN"s and LPN's they all laugh at this happening anytime soon if ever, i figure by the time this go in to effect, i will be a retired nurse :rotfl: and i am just 26 years old JMO

LPN's not working as LPN's actually happened in my area and within the past two years! LPN's were removed from practice and given tech jobs. In all fairness to my post previously, the hospital was in the processing of closing its doors(Riverside Hospital, in the State of Michigan.) The DMC is in danger of closing also and has only just been bailed out. I'm curious to see if they go the same way withing the next few years. Will ADN's become like LPN's in the near future...no probably not, but changes are in the wind. What they truely will be, who knows. It's all nervous speculation. I think as long as nurses stick together regarding client safety, client safety will remain the hospitals standard of care, and it won't really matter if the nurse is ADN or BSN. However if we don't make a fuss, cheaper labor will be employed. (forcing LPN's to work as Techs...that's just wrong). Incidentally, I just finished an orientation at a good paying hospital and guess what the topic was. Client loyalty...'smile and be courteous because we want repeat business. Without client loyalty, we'll have to lay off!' The next time I get sick, I otta stamp a dollar sign on my bum and run by administration screaming 'fluff my pillow, I'm not happy, no repeat business' (ha,ha).

I find it really ironic when I hear "ADN RNs will be like LPNs, LPNs will be like CNAs...".

In actuality, the opposite is happening. Today, RNs (ADN or otherwise) are doing things that only doctors could do a few years ago. Used to be LPNs could not do IV meds- they can now. CNAs now do foleys, blood draws, dsg changes, etc. Where I work (chronic dialysis) techs with no certifications or formal education whatsoever do pt assessments and determine pt tx.

More and more responsibility and duties are being delegated to those with less and less education. Why?

$$$

Specializes in Gerontological Nursing, Acute Rehab.
If you ADN nurses are so proud of your title, why did you half *** it with a 2 year diploma and settle for less? Sorry, call it like I see it, why butter it up? Nursing is a PROFESSION and deserves to be recognized with a degree.

Disgusting, rude, pathetic, and out and out BS!! I was just browing thru this message because I find this ADN vs. BSN debate detrimental to the fragile link that nurses have holding us together anyway, but this statement makes me wonder where the heck you got YOUR degree.....anyone with an attitude like that.....never mind, I refuse to get mean. Sorry you consider me as "settling for less", I just had a husband and child to support. And my husband has his "real" professional degree (unlike my "fake" one) and guess what? I AM the one that makes a lot more money....I AM the one that has more "skills", and I AM the one that has had NUMEROUS management positions.

Gosh, I'm so mad I can't even think! Forget it, people with that kind of attitude isn't worth my mental effort (which isn't much cuz I only have my ADN and do everything HALFA**ED ANYWAY!!

AGGGRRRRHHHHHH!!! :angryfire :angryfire :angryfire

Specializes in Emergency Room.
I have found that more often than not BSN's have no clue how to nurse. They know how to "manage". Over the last 10 years I had the pleasure of precepting new grads to the ER. I had a far easier time with ASN's. My last BSN had been on orientation for 3 months. Makes one worry

lumping people into a group and stereotyping them is not fair. if you can honestly say that ALL bsn nurses don't have a clue then why do we have so many nurses at the bedside with bsn's that do have a clue. some can say that asn/adn nurses don't have critical thinking skills. would that be fair? no it wouldn't. it is childish and immature to try to degrade a nurses education. it doesn't matter if you have a adn or bsn. nursing school prepares all nurses to safely and effectively take care of patients. some people really don't want to be nurses and it shows through their actions once they start working. i work with alot of adn nurses who HATE being a nurse and they show it through their "i could care less about this job" attitude. what happens? the patients and family suffer. is it because the nurse is a adn? i think not. come on people don't be so immature.

Specializes in ER.

Everyone has the right to state their opinions on this BB. But my opinion is that this issue has been done to death, and no one gets constructive information out of it past the first page. It's like nursing's push-button troll thread- just mention BSN/RN and everyone goes off the deep end like a bunch of sheep.

On page 25, the only thing left to discuss is whose friendship is going to be ruined in the last few pages. I'm starting a new thread, "No more BSN/RN" and your are welcome to join me there. If you wanna fight, well, this is as good as anything to fight about.

I wonder why diploma nurse programs fell out of favor??Both my mom and my business partner graduated from diploma programs and they truly sound like the best programs out there? I did my Associates..my mom and my partner actually lived at the hospitals with the nuns/ nurses and besides classroom instruction pretty much worked as they learned. My business partner "worked/ learned" ER for the last 18 months of her program and my mom worked as a student intern in the first kidney center in this part of the US..of course they both graduated from hospital diploma programs versus college but it sounds like they both received a great education...Diploma programs to me sound more like med school. ..some classroom then on to the real life "vocational" teaching. Say what you will about the degree but MDs learn how to practice medicine when they are interns/residents..I actually think that the diploma nursing school is modeled in much the same way...If there would have been a diploma program available to me that is the way I would have went...:) Erin

My RN Diploma program (which was 3 YEARS not 10 months as someone incorrectly stated) was similar to medschool/residency programs...in fact we ran both programs out of the same hospital system in partnership with the local university.(prereqs) Many instructors taught in both programs...some of my instructors were doctors who also taught in medschool, and my nursing instructors (many were PHD nurses) ALSO taught in the med school...it was a great experience living, working and learning in a teaching environment. Some disdain the diploma method of education but it made me the nurse I am today. We were actually in transition to a BSN program but were unable to fulfill that due to strong opposition. It was NOT, as another poster insinuated, because we didn't 'cut the mustard' education wise...it was about who had political clout.

My school closed due to lobbying and pressure from the ivory tower/higher education community...the universities essentially used their political clout to close my old school after over 100 years of operation.The university systems did not want the competition from us, essentially, so they did the school in. It was a no brainer in in my area who put out the best nurses...there was no argument in the community at all about this. The only ones who thought the BSN programs were better were the BSN program folks...but in practice the obvious truth was unavoidable. The same stuff goes 'round today; although I'm sure some BSN programs DO a good job of putting out a competent RN who can function, it is very individualized in each community, I suspect.

One of the hallmarks of my (and most) RN Diploma program was that they put out a nurse who COULD function independently as a teamleader in a real life hospital environment....we did NOT need a preceptorship after graduation.We learned to function in a real life role WHILE we were in school.

My local DO and PA program BOTH offer advanced placement to RN's and their brochures actively encourage nurses to apply, as their nurse students have done so well. I don't know about the MD programs, maybe they do too. Many universities now offer life credit portfolios towards degrees. The fact most RN to BSN programs will give me (27 year practicing RN) little to nothing speaks volumes about their true goals...which would seem to be more about power, control and $$$ than anything else, IMO.

I know why Diploma and AS/AA RN's get irked about this topic...it is because we experience such disdain by the NURSE baccalaureate community. I don't expect this to change because as I said, it seems to be about power control and $$$.

Sorry so long...this issue is close to my heart as it is to many here.

Specializes in LTC.

I wish more diploma programs were still around today. I certainly could use the experience. I wish my LPN program offered more practical experience. One thing I can't figure out... if the BSN programs have you for 4 years, why can't they incorporate as much practical experience as a 3-year diploma program?

My RN Diploma program (which was 3 YEARS not 10 months as someone incorrectly stated) was similar to medschool/residency programs...in fact we ran both programs out of the same hospital system in partnership with the local university.(prereqs) Many instructors taught in both programs...some of my instructors were doctors who also taught in medschool, and my nursing instructors (many were PHD nurses) ALSO taught in the med school...it was a great experience living, working and learning in a teaching environment. Some disdain the diploma method of education but it made me the nurse I am today. We were actually in transition to a BSN program but were unable to fulfill that due to strong opposition. It was NOT, as another poster insinuated, because we didn't 'cut the mustard' education wise...it was about who had political clout.

My school closed due to lobbying and pressure from the ivory tower/higher education community...the universities essentially used their political clout to close my old school after over 100 years of operation.The university systems did not want the competition from us, essentially, so they did the school in. It was a no brainer in in my area who put out the best nurses...there was no argument in the community at all about this. The only ones who thought the BSN programs were better were the BSN program folks...but in practice the obvious truth was unavoidable. The same stuff goes 'round today; although I'm sure some BSN programs DO a good job of putting out a competent RN who can function, it is very individualized in each community, I suspect.

One of the hallmarks of my (and most) RN Diploma program was that they put out a nurse who COULD function independently as a teamleader in a real life hospital environment....we did NOT need a preceptorship after graduation.We learned to function in a real life role WHILE we were in school.

My local DO and PA program BOTH offer advanced placement to RN's and their brochures actively encourage nurses to apply, as their nurse students have done so well. I don't know about the MD programs, maybe they do too. Many universities now offer life credit portfolios towards degrees. The fact most RN to BSN programs will give me (27 year practicing RN) little to nothing speaks volumes about their true goals...which would seem to be more about power, control and $$$ than anything else, IMO.

I know why Diploma and AS/AA RN's get irked about this topic...it is because we experience such disdain by the NURSE baccalaureate community. I don't expect this to change because as I said, it seems to be about power control and $$$.

Sorry so long...this issue is close to my heart as it is to many here.

I am sorry but I strongly disagree!! I was originally a diploma grad from New York State in 1975. It took me only a few short years to figure out that nurses were at the bottom of the food chain as compared to other professions who had higher levels of education. This led me to go back to school to earn a BSN after I mover to California. I will never regret earning my BSN.

I strongly feel that the BSN needs to be the entry into practice for nurses, and Diploma, and Associatee degree programs should be phased out over 5 years. The concept of the LPN also needs to go the way of high button shoes and be discontinued. It needs to be switched to a 2 year associate program, similar to what Physical Theraoy Assistants are required to earn.

It is ridiculous that Pbysical Therapy Assistants need at least an Associates degree to practice, Dieticians, Speech Pathologists, Dental Hygienists, Social Workers, all require at least a Bachelors to practice, many of them require at least a Master's. Physical Therapists, Occupational Therapists, Pharmacists, all now have a Master's Degree to practice. I have just heard recently that PT's are going to a Doctorate as the entry to practice, as have Pharmacists done already.

It should be no surprise to anyone that Nurses have the lowest level of entry into practice and have the lowest pay, respect, control, and autonomy of all the health care professions. Nursing has become the welfare of women's professions. An easy, low educational requirement course, that any high school drop out can complete.At least tht is the public's and administrator's perception.

We will never achieve the same level of professionlism and compensation that the above professions have due to our resistance, and disdain for higher education. Increasing the requirements to achieve entry into practice is how these professions achieved their status. More education equals more money. Unfortunately ADNs and Dipolma grads need to validate their self- worth and self- importance by denying BSN's higher pay for their degree. If you are not going to get paid more, why get a degree? THAT is the reason that BSN' s so quickly leave the bedside! It nothing to do with the work of the bedside nurse. We don't evne respect our own. Nurses eat their Young and their Educated.Teachers long ago known the value of higher education, and the they have always rewared higher levelas of education with more pay, regardless of who is doing what, or if it is the same job. Nurses have kept the compensation factor out of the paycheck, and don't understand that there is a weeding out process is necessary to keep the most dedicated in and keep nurses numbers down. Nurses are a dime a dozen- we do not need any more nurses in this country. No question. What we need is better retention for the ones that we have. The public equates worth with education. We have made ourselves an easy target for de -skilling by continuing with supportfor less than an BSN into practice.

We have given the public, hospital administrators, and the insurance companies an easy mark to cut. How important do we look when our members have an entry into practice of 1-2 years. Not much differant than an unskilled tech. We are constantly having our profesional practices cut into by hospitals administrators, and even the ANA and our State Boards of Nursing. Now even medication administration is being delegated to CNA's. No other profession hands over their professional practice with the ease that nursing does.

We have not learned the business skills that these other professions have, to protect their profession. These business skills, and learning how to start and run a business, are learned at the Bachelor level, not at the Diploma or ADN, and certainly not at the LPN level. These skills are incorporated into the PT, and OT programs, even at the Bachelor's level.

We are looked at as a Blue- Collar, trailer trash, "job", and we do nothing to improve on that image. Indeed, those of us who do attempt to improve the image and respectability of nurses, are shouted down, and belittled- re- inforcing the "We are all the same", mentality. It's no wonder those of us who have learned how to play and win the game, are leaving the bedside-everyone else can fend for themselves. Society, not BSN's, have put up the hoops they have decided need to be achieved to be respected, and rewarded. Nurses have not yet learned that in order to achieve the gains of other professions we have to play by the same rules and play the same game. You don't know what you don't know because you don't know. It is as simple as that.

I have seen the latest survey that says nurses are held in the highes respect by the public. That may be true, but ask them if we should earn what PT's, OT's, ST's, and pharmacists earn. The respone that I have seen is one of immediatly changing their demeanor, and their tone. Their support of nurses then becomes if "nurses were paid the higher salaries of these other professions, my health care costs will go up. All because of those greedy nurses. What do they expect? They only went to school for one or two years". Few of them realize nurses take the same science pre- requisitates and classes as PT's, OT's, and SP's. Most of the public is unaware of the intensity of nursing education,and that many of us have college degrees. They think that it is "On the Job Trainging". Nurses re- inforce that image by the attitude that unless a nurse can "hit the ground running" the day after they graduate, they, and their program, are are deficient. This also emphasizes the "blue collar, On the training" mentality that permeates nursing and holds us back in image.

I don't put much weight when I hear that there is no BSN program close enough attend so someone ahd to attends the closer diploma, ADN or LPN program. In other professions, when one want to become a member of a certain profession, you figure out a way to acheive the educational goals that are are required to enter that profession. There are no other choices. Nursing has far to many choices and it is killing us.

Little emphasis is placed on the internships that other professions are required to go through in order to practice after graduation that gives credibility to other health care professions. They are quicky leaving nursing in the dust.

It will never change until there is more respect placed on higher education in nursing, and we drastically cut our numbers entering into the profession. As long as hospitals now have their cure for their latest staffing shortage as close as then next ADN or Diploma graduation away, there will never be any attempt to reward the older, more experienced nurses, and improve our compensation.

We have no credibility at bargaining table because we are facing MBA's, business people, who know how to manipulate the cards. That is a skill that nurses have never learned and never will. We will never sit at the table where public policy, and multi- million dollar health care decisions are made and influenced with a diploma, ADN, LPN degree after our name. The few individuals who have entered into that level with less than a BSN, MSN, MBA, are few and far between. Certainly not enought to influence the important decisions that affect our society and profession. We are not credible enough to be influential with our present leval of entry practice, or higher. Others are making decisions about nursing and health care and we are being cut out of the pie, because too most of us have chosen not to learn how to play, and win, the game. We are already losing the game. I forsee the end to nursing as we know it in my lifetime, or less. It is already happening. While other profession hold on for dear life to their professional practice, nursing is allowing ours to be sold to the highest bidder and the lowest skilled provider

I have left nursing for greener pastures, never to return to bedside nursing. No one, not hospitals, or my fellow nurses, have given me any reason or incentive to work that hard, risk personal injury, and the inconvenience, for what I consider to be, not much more than high school drop out wages. Certainly there is no incentive by the bedside nurse to improve their situation Unionizing has helped, but the self- respect that goes along with improved working conditions, pay and benefits, is not there. We let everyone else pull our strings and we are helpless and un- motivated to stop the runaway train that is our presant day nursing. The majority of nurses fight the very changes that would improve the situation. Good Luck! I will not be delegating med administration to high school drop out nurses aides, lose my license when I am held a accountable for their mistakes, take 15 patients as my patient load, listen to everyone else that I come in contact with push me around, have no control over my professional practice, etc. You get the picture. I only hope that some of the newer nurses who leave the bedside before they have had the time in practice and renew their licence more than once will have the initiave to take control of nursing. I'm not holding my breath!

I am sure that I will have many who will disagree with my position, but I have been a nurse since 1975, and have a chance to see the progression and changes that nursing has gone through. There have been minimal efforts on the part of our members, and leaders (who go where the power is), to make any meaningful improvements in the situation. They hold up the hoops, and we jump. Until that situation changes, nursing will never change or improve.

Linda, Spokane Washington.

Hospitals have no reason to attempt to retain their experienced nursing staff

I just wanted to let people know that at least in Michigan there are Associate Degrees for dental hygenists, physical therapy as well as RN's. I think the debate on BSN vs ADN would be a better issue if the classes in question were about more advanced nursing classes that BSN's had to take. I don't believe clients receive better care if I can quote literary articles, write term papers on the history of 1812, or earned a gym credit in bowling. I believe the core of this imortant debate is the fear that lesser trained individuals will be performing higher level tasks without understanding what they are doing or why they're doing it. It is a scary thought. The big difference in Michigan for BSN vs ADN nursing schools is the managment and research classes and the 'non-nursing classes' needed to fullfill the 120 credit requirement. In other states that might not be the case. I plan on taking the 72 credits I earned in order to receive my ADN to start the MSN program next fall after a year of work experience, not because I think it will make me better than anybody else, but because I want to teach. After some of the instructors I had, Lord knows I can do better! Good luck to all the nurses. Who knows maybe we can find a solution to this debate one day? Maybe some kind of core standards for any accredited school??:)

This is an issue made to generate contempt and spawn hurtful feelings, like canoehead said been done to death

Have fun rehashing it and enjoy the flames

I have heared this over and over, from old RN"s and LPN's they all laugh at this happening anytime soon if ever, i figure by the time this go in to effect, i will be a retired nurse :rotfl: and i am just 26 years old JMO

People here were saying the same thing, until it came to pass. No more Diplima programs in the province anymore.... At least when I retire they won't be arguing over which is better anymore:)

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