Seniority - page 4

My faculty had adopted a new policy where seniority doesn't play a factor at all in obtaining new positions. A nurse who has only been there a year has an equal opportunity as a nurse who had been... Read More

  1. by   nursel56
    Quote from caffeinatednurse
    Clearly you've had a younger manager that rubbed you the wrong way, personality wise.

    I've yet to meet one like this. Most younger managers I've met are hard workers, very competent, a little competitive, and respectful of the experience and wisdom that more seasoned nurses bring to the table.
    Yes, I know. I have encountered that behavior, but not all of it in the same person It was was actually a brief moment of exaggeration on my part after reading a post that contained several of the most hackneyed stereotypes about older nurses.

    In all likelihood, most of us on this thread aren't like the extremes of either side. I would choose a younger manager who excels at their job over an experienced nurse who doesn't without hesitation.
  2. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from Cvepo
    Nursing is generational, and I actually find this to be a fascinating topic. It was discussed heavily at my old institution's preceptor course and charge nurse course because generational attitudes really do come into play in the nursing workforce because we have such a wide range of generations doing the same job.

    I would never ask someone why they don't retire so others can have jobs. However, I challenge some of the older generation to look into what the new generation of workers is entering into, and the disadvantages they face. I came out with a BSN from a state school with over 25k in debt, and that's low compared to most. Housing prices in moderately large metro areas are well out of reach for the younger generation. Pensions and retirements are almost non-existant to new nurses. The worst part is that many of the older generation workers, frankly, don't give a crap about any of this. They just simply don't care, because all they see is "I worked for this" ignoring the fact that they had some things easier.

    But I digress. I enjoy a thought provoking discussion on the matter, but I know it falls on deaf ears. All we can hope for is that the multi-generational nursing role can continue to grow and understand each other. It's not all about "me, me, me" on either end.
    EVERY generation faces its issues. When I graduated in the early 80s, the inflation rate was through the roof and unemployment very high in my area. It's why I joined the military at 18. For opportunity and gainful work.

    I have been through some amazingly tough times, working up the ranks, getting out, going to school on my GI BILL w/o a penny from anyone else. Pensions??? Ha. None have ever been offered in my working life EXCEPT military.

    We Gen Xers never got em either. We were told 401K 403B whatever. Oh and I have been told over and over: DO NOT expect there to be ANY social security for you even though I have paid into over 30 years. How the heck is that fair? It's not. But I won't see the money I worked my ass off to earn and put into the pot.

    The millennial generation does not have it easy, but it's not harder than when I grew up. Rise above challenges; don't lament them. We all have our stuff to deal with and have to work for those coveted jobs and promotions.

    My job was not handed to me.....and it was not cause I was "older". I earned it.

    You can do the same.

    Quit waiting for the world to change; change it. It's YOUR future. But don't disrespect experienced nurses. We MAY just know a few things you don't. I have been 20, 30, 40 and beyond. You have not yet.
  3. by   bellini
    Seniority is a necessary but not sufficient criterion for promotion. To be qualified for a management position, you need a lot of clinical knowledge and experience and charge experience...and you cannot obtain that knowledge and experience without having put the time in. But... if you have spent twenty-five years doing the bare minimum to avoid being let go-and we all know some of those-then you should not feel yourself entitled to promotion and you shouldn't begrudge anyone else.
  4. by   klone
    Quote from bellini
    Seniority is a necessary but not sufficient criterion for promotion. To be qualified for a management position, you need a lot of clinical knowledge and experience and charge experience...and you cannot obtain that knowledge and experience without having put the time in.
    Seniority and experience are separate ideas, though. There are nurses with decades of relevant experience, but are low seniority at a facility because their experience was at other facilities. My opinion is that seniority should not play a part in promotion. Relevant experience, skill level, and suitability for the role should. Sure, if everything else is equal, you should go with the more senior nurse. But in reality, that is RARELY the case, particularly for promotional opportunities. There is almost ALWAYS going to be a candidate that has better relevant experience and is just better suited for the role. Advancement should be based on merit, not years clocked.
  5. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from klone
    Seniority and experience are separate ideas, though. There are nurses with decades of relevant experience, but are low seniority at a facility because their experience was at other facilities. My opinion is that seniority should not play a part in promotion. Relevant experience, skill level, and suitability for the role should. Sure, if everything else is equal, you should go with the more senior nurse. But in reality, that is RARELY the case, particularly for promotional opportunities. There is almost ALWAYS going to be a candidate that has better relevant experience and is just better suited for the role. Advancement should be based on merit, not years clocked.
    I think the two are not mutually exclusive. What I mean is, if the senior nurse is equally qualified to the newer one, education considered, then the senior nurse should get the promotion.

    If the junior nurse is better educated or more qualified, then yes, that person is the better candidate.
  6. by   RNNPICU
    Something else to consider,
    Having peer reviews instead of senority gives everyone a chance at a position. Just because someone has years of experience at a facility does not make them the most suited candidate. Many times those of us with years at a facility may be constantly reusing old ideas, or not moving forwards with changes, "fresh" ideas or concepts. It may be possible that a more junior candidate interviewed well and was able to provide new concepts and a vision or direction. Peer reviews also give all levels of staff a chance to view the candidate as a potential for the role
  7. by   not.done.yet
    I too would like to see the new policy, verbatim. I find it a little incredulous that this peer scorecard would be the ONLY criteria considered.
  8. by   RNNPICU
    Quote from not.done.yet
    I too would like to see the new policy, verbatim. I find it a little incredulous that this peer scorecard would be the ONLY criteria considered.
    Exactly. I have taken part in interviews with peer review as a prt of it. Everyone who I interviewed had the same score card that they used to make notes. I know this because I was told this ahead of time. The peer review is likely an aspe t of it. I think peer reviews are important because the "peers" could be a direct report. Both sides of the interview( the interviewers and the interviewee) can get a better understanding of roles and relationships
  9. by   HalfBoiled
    I am in agreement for whoever is the best suited gets the job and/or advancement.

    HOWEVER, I do believe seniority does need to play factor for certain scenrios

    Alpha RN has been working for Hospital One's Medsurg unit for over 12 months (paid without benefits) and has yet to advance to Level 2.
    Delta RN was hired after Alpha has just gotten off orientation (2 months) and was immediately promoted to a benefit position.

    What is the difference?
    Alpha was a new grad that has every certification relating to medsurg (BLS, ACLS, EKG, etc.). Whereas, Delta had 6 months of experience at a local SNF.
  10. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Saw a nurse with less than 2 years' (more like 18 months) experience get promoted to a management position that she totally was inappropriate for. She came into nursing saying " I didn't get my BSN to wipe asses". And she sure didn't. Even when it was needed and the techs were all busy. She let the patients stew in their mess, pulling techs away from what they were doing to do the job for her. She was mean and cold/heartless to her patients, too. And a backstabber to co-nurses. Zero compassion or heart. But she knew how to play the game and appeal to administration, looking "good" and playing the "part" of an administrator and got promoted WAY ahead of her time and above much more qualified senior people. She was the perfect suck-up.

    Well, predictably, she has failed miserably. She has zero respect and buy-in from the staff and the patients don't know who she is, because she never rounds and checks in to see how they are doing or bothers to introduce herself. She has to ask senior staff all the time how to do various things she should already know because she spent like, 4 minutes as an actual nurse.

    Peer review might well have been useful in not placing her in a position she did not deserve and was poorly-suited for. She has no viable qualifications that make a good leader or manager other than her BSN (which I do respect). The staff have always known this and a peer review might have disqualified her as manager.

    Should have been a more senior nurse who had actually spent time taking care of patients and learning the work they do. If she wanted respect from her staff, (which I am not convinced she even cares)---- she would have spent some time in the trenches first, learning a bit about what nursing really is before intending to tell everyone how they should do their jobs. Sadly, She has no clue what the staff do nor does she care. She comes in, stays in her office and hardly ever interacts with the staff. But she sure can criticize every little thing she perceives is done wrong. Communication? There is none unless it is to criticize people. Zero transparency. Never a positive or encouraging word.

    In this case, a huge disservice was done both to her and the staff, and very importantly, the patients.

    Seniority and experience do matter when a person means to lead and supervise others. No one respects a manager who has no clue or understanding (or compassion) for what their staff do on a daily basis.

    A more senior nurse would have been much more suitable; at least she or he would understand the issues staff deal with and help them solve them. She's just positioning herself for her next big promotion and doing the bare minimum to keep the job she has now until she inevitably gets that next promotion. Shameful.

    Oh and when she took over, a mass exodus of experienced staff occurred in a matter of months. Many people left, disgusted with being stuck with this person as their manager. That is telling right there, too.

    Experience and seniority are not the only qualifications, but you can't discount them.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Sep 13
  11. by   applewhitern
    Whoever is close friends with the DON is who gets the 8-4 dayshift, office jobs at my facility, and any other sought-after position. Doesn't matter who is best suited for the job, if you socialize with the right people outside of work, and brown-nose enough, you get it.
  12. by   klone
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    Saw a nurse with less than 2 years' (more like 18 months) experience get promoted to a management position that she totally was inappropriate for. She came into nursing saying " I didn't get my BSN to wipe asses". And she sure didn't. Even when it was needed and the techs were all busy. She let the patients stew in their mess, pulling techs away from what they were doing to do the job for her. She was mean and cold/heartless to her patients, too. And a backstabber to co-nurses. Zero compassion or heart. But she knew how to play the game and appeal to administration, looking "good" and playing the "part" of an administrator and got promoted WAY ahead of her time and above much more qualified senior people. She was the perfect suck-up.

    Well, predictably, she has failed miserably. She has zero respect and buy-in from the staff and the patients don't know who she is, because she never rounds and checks in to see how they are doing or bothers to introduce herself. She has to ask senior staff all the time how to do various things she should already know because she spent like, 4 minutes as an actual nurse.

    Peer review might well have been useful in not placing her in a position she did not deserve and was poorly-suited for. She has no viable qualifications that make a good leader or manager other than her BSN (which I do respect). The staff have always known this and a peer review might have disqualified her as manager.

    Should have been a more senior nurse who had actually spent time taking care of patients and learning the work they do. If she wanted respect from her staff, (which I am not convinced she even cares)---- she would have spent some time in the trenches first, learning a bit about what nursing really is before intending to tell everyone how they should do their jobs. Sadly, She has no clue what the staff do nor does she care. She comes in, stays in her office and hardly ever interacts with the staff. But she sure can criticize every little thing she perceives is done wrong. Communication? There is none unless it is to criticize people. Zero transparency. Never a positive or encouraging word.

    In this case, a huge disservice was done both to her and the staff, and very importantly, the patients.

    Seniority and experience do matter when a person means to lead and supervise others. No one respects a manager who has no clue or understanding (or compassion) for what their staff do on a daily basis.

    A more senior nurse would have been much more suitable; at least she or he would understand the issues staff deal with and help them solve them. She's just positioning herself for her next big promotion and doing the bare minimum to keep the job she has now until she inevitably gets that next promotion. Shameful.

    Oh and when she took over, a mass exodus of experienced staff occurred in a matter of months. Many people left, disgusted with being stuck with this person as their manager. That is telling right there, too.

    Experience and seniority are not the only qualifications, but you can't discount them.
    I think you and I are using the term "seniority" differently. You seem to be using it as interchangeable with "experience" and I am using it per the definition of most union contracts, which is the length of time employed at a particular facility. And I contend that, unless everything else is equivalent and it is used to decide between two completely qualified candidates, seniority should NOT play a role in promotion or advancement. Experience, YES.
  13. by   operations
    If you are thinking you are entitled to anything based on seniority or age in the workplace that is non negotiated and in writing, you are gravely mistaken. That's a very conservative and naive view.

    And it's just not the way things are, not that I think it's "fair" by the most basic definition.

    That is not to say that seniority doesn't have VALUE. It does, it means you are a very committed person to that company and your career, and they have had no reason to fire you for your employment duration.

    But you are misunderstood of how buisness works, and the buisness world perceives fairness. Let me explain:

    1. Fairness in the buisness world comes in the form of contracts. You are not "entitled" to anything that is not in writing by your employer. So if you want upward mobility, it is not something to be earned. You may be able to make a contract negotiation, but I do not know how often that an RN gets a guaranteed promotion via contract, probably never.
    Understanding this fact is important so you are not lead on by your employer, which happens often because.....

    2. Employers like to keep positions that are hard to fill filled. Taking a ****** role to impress an employer is often a trap, because if they can convince you to do your best and stay at this role, it will be filled with a reliable person indefinitely. This happens a lot in entry level roles...

    "I'll take this ****** job and put in a few years and do my best. They will give me a promotion because I deserve it"
    Wrong. Maybe they will, but you really are just taking a risk. You've made it up in your head you will recieve something no one has offered you. And it's a big risk, because as long as they can keep you loyal and motivated they have this great person that will do this job nobody wants. And that will be better for them, so that's what they will probably do. Altruistic definitions of "fairness" are not observed buy the buisness world.

    3. "But I'm older. I have more expertise. I know this place inside and this role and out!"
    Yes, that is a potential benefit that they should consider, and they probably will. However, a lot of choices are also made on data about that demographic. This is used all the time. Ex. Older people might have less ability to think creatively. Older people may need medical leave. Older people may not be as good with new technology. This information is gathered through research, and psychologists etc are often hired to consult a company on this data. Is it discrimination? Good question. It's done all the time every day and nothing has happened

    4. "So a younger person is better than me? *****"

    No. But they do have some potential benefits which are taken into account. Your expertise usually does mean something major in these decisions, but it's not the end all be all. There's data on young people too that isn't good:" Millennials tend to have poor work ethic". One you've probably heard of.

    5. But most importantly, everyone knows that buisness is WHO you know most of the time and it's not going to change. So if you want to win the game, you have to play by the rules as much as possible. Network network network.

    6. "but that's kissing ass and I'll never do it"

    Making connections isn't kissing ass by default. And it's not a guaranteed thing, just something that is a benefit. Just like all other aspects, like experience, a connection with a person doesn't entitle you to anything either, but it doesn't hurt you.

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