I did something stupid... no, embarrassing and stupid

[JessicaInOr]

Okay, first I want to make it clear that this is not a thread about religion. Please, let's not discuss our personal views of religion, that isn't my topic.

Here is my problem. I have two patients, D and J. D and J (I'm serious here folks) share the same biological mother and they share the same husband. D is preggers with her 17th child and J is preggers with her 14th child. There are several other wives to this gentleman but they aren't my patients.

Today I was talking to the MD office getting some orders (home infusion co,) and although the topic was J I mentioned something I needed for D as well. The woman on the phone acted confused and I was trying to explain their relationship tactfully. I started to say that D was going to borrow something from her ... frie... sist... umm... suddenly I drew a total blank at how they would refer to one another. I finally blurted out "co-wives!" Oh geez, what an idiot I am. The stuttering and stammering on my part was not intentional, I was actually looking for a respectful term and I wasn't coming up with anything and the more I stammered trying to find the right term the more it looked like I was looking for a smart remark or insulting term. It felt like this went on for a long time but it was really just seconds. The more I realized what a butt I was making of myself the more I stuttered and couldn't come up with a word.

Finally the woman on the phone kindly reminded me that we are all women and they are just like me. Just women. She did think I was trying to come up with an insulting remark. She was also tactfully telling me that she is also one of many wives to the same husband.

I just came clean with her. I said look, I don't know how I am going to get out of this one other than to apologize. I was trying to come up with a respectful term and I drew a blank. I am so very sorry. She laughed and told me she was used to this. I did explain that I just froze and nothing bright was coming to mind. I really was looking for a respectful term.

She laughed and said not to worry, she believed me. But she just asked me one question, would I please just promise her one thing. I said sure, what is it? She asked that I not believe everything I see and hear in the media. She said it just isn't like the media makes this out to be.

A little history. I live in Arizona and there are parts of AZ that have Mormons that believe in this lifestyle. There has been a great deal of media coverage on this and the are blasting these folks. I really don't know much about this lifestyle but today I realized I need to learn about it.

I am in serious need of a lesson in culture here. I point blank admitted this to the woman on the phone. She said she would see what she could find. I was looking for something to read and understand their point of view. She said she would do some checking and let me know.

A couple of hours later she called me and said that she came up with.. nothing. They are extremely private people and they just don't talk about their world much and they don't write about it. She asked around and pondered this since our previous conversation and she wasn't able to come up with anything.

I asked if I could ask a question and she said sure, go for it. I asked my question and she answered from her point of view.

This makes me realize, I don't want to be in that position again. I want to learn more about this but I don't know how. I want to be respectful of my patients but I'm at a loss as to how to do this.

Any suggestions for some good reading? A place where my questions will be answered? The more I understand their ways of living and thinking the better I can do for my two patients.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. And does anyone have any similar experiences?

[JessicaInOr]

...But if we condone a society of political correctness where everything goes, then I guess that's the price we pay for it.

I mean, if we don't draw the line anywhere, then we CAN'T draw the line anywhere.

But we aren't living in a society of 'everything goes' ... not by a long shot. We have laws in place specifically so that everything does not go. We have policemen arresting people every single day for prostitution, selling drugs to children, those who rape, those who murder... the list seems absolutely endless. So we do draw the lines.

I think it is easy to blame society as a whole for problems of a few. And it is the few that causes the most problems. It is not the fault of society that John Smith sells pot or steals from others. Personally, I call that bad parenting a good part of the time. People leave the upbringing of their children to society and then when they don't turn out well they blame society. That isn't how it works.

I think another frustration for those who actually do believe anything goes is really a religious issue. They can't fathom how someone could ... oh I don't know... live with someone outside of marriage. To *that* specific person it may seem as though anything goes but in reality, the practice merely ruffles the feathers of those who choose a religion where this is considered sinful. That just isn't 'anything goes'. That is a difference of opinion on right vs. wrong.

However, when it comes to these girls in Colorado City, it is a shame. A senseless shame. Anything really does go there, when children are involved all the rules change. I still wish I knew how they get away with it. I know how they do on a local level, all those in a position of power live the same lifestyle. But the state of Arizona or the federal gov't... what is stopping them dead in their tracks to save these children? If someone would act on this in an appropriate manner they would be adored by a good majority of the population. Political folks are always looking for something to make them look good. Saving the lives and futures of these little adolescent girls would be a great thing for their career. Yet ... nothing. Absolutely nothing.

[JessicaInOr]

I have a very dear friend who did rural health care nursing for these plural wife families. Her philiosohpy - children and women need care iregardless of their lifestyle. You can't judge. She loved her job. They respected her. Kids got good health care.

A gal I work with now used to work on behalf of these ladies and children too but too many of the men wouldn't allow their wives to go there for medical care. She's a woman and they wanted someone smart so they found a male medical provider.

[pricklypear]

A gal I work with now used to work on behalf of these ladies and children too but too many of the men wouldn't allow their wives to go there for medical care. She's a woman and they wanted someone smart so they found a male medical provider.

I'd bet those husbands don't like their wives and daughters being exposed to many of the rest of us - a male practitioner may be less likely to find aspects of their lifestyle abusive. That's probably very sexist of me, I know.

[Reborn]

.

It is not the fault of society that John Smith sells pot or steals from others. Personally, I call that bad parenting a good part of the time. People leave the upbringing of their children to society and then when they don't turn out well they blame society. That isn't how it works.

On this I totally agree. I did correctional nursing for 4 yrs and the prison's are full of the results of this kind of "background", caused by the parents "lifestyle choices" and "parenting styles".

But as to the drawing lines, well, if there are no moral absolutes, then who can decide where to draw the lines?

With "minor" children, one would assume. So, I'm very interested to know, what are the laws where these "families" live, and how are they circumventing them, if they are? (If that was explained and I overlooked it, please forgive the question)

As nurses, while on duty, we must care for and respect cultural differences, even to those who have broken the law, or have been accused of it. But on our own time, we can be activists against those things we don't agree with.

[pricklypear]

As nurses, while on duty, we must care for and respect cultural differences, even to those who have broken the law, or have been accused of it. But on our own time, we can be activists against those things we don't agree with.

I agree we must respect cultural differences, and even care for those who have broken the law, but are we not required, by law, to report suspected abuse? Especially child abuse? I'm not implying that all the young girls who are being married off are being "abused," but what if a nurse treating one of them suspects emotional abuse?

[Reborn]

Oh yes, we are definitely obligated, not only legally but ethically,

(notice I didn't say morally, can't impose our own moral standard on anyone else, right?)

to report suspected abuse, but as defined by law, not of our own judgement. That's why I was curious as to what exactly were the laws in the state where this is happening.

It's a heartbreaking situation, as are so many now-a-days.(2 Timothy 3:1-9)

[Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN]

I respect cultural difference, but i have a severe problem with an adult marrying a 13 or 14 year old child.

[Nurse Ratched, RN]

Mod note: a number of posts completely extraneous to the original topic (and resulting in several TOS violations) were removed to avoid having to close it entirely.

[czeafer32]

You know here in the place where I am working with right now , that issue of multiple marriages is not a big deal . Because it is already a part of their culture to marry as many as they can provided that they will be able to support all their wives . And they are all fair with all the wives , whatever the husband gave to the first wife he should as well give to the second or third wives . I think its better for you to use the term FIRST WIFE OR SECOND WIFE . It is according who is the first in his life , eventhough the husband is still living with both .

It isn't the family you are thinking of, but they are likely neighbors. Yes, this is Colorado City, Arizona. You know, I really haven't come across them in all these years. They don't meander to the valley much.

They aren't just in Arizona/Utah anymore. They are building a huge city in Texas now and they are also in Mexico. But yes, they are always near a border to escape if need be.

The woman I was talking to today told me if I were to Google Mormons and 1953 (I think I recall the year correctly) I would find a great deal of information about when the gov't went into their city and took all the children. They wanted to adopt them out to various families but didn't have families available. So they ended up putting them in SNFs for lack of anywhere else to place them. After two years and various court battles they got their children back.

I do plan on researching this, I'm interested in how that all played out.

I realized today how very ignorant I am of these folks. I had no idea the women worked, I thought they were all 'stay at home' Moms. One of the ladies I work with has some pretty strong opinions due to her time in Colorado City and she feels the women are abused and nothing more. She wasn't permitted to give many of them medical care because she is a woman. The husbands wanted a smart person caring for their wives, you know... a man.

I want first hand info. I want to learn more about this so I don't face another embarrassing moment like today.

[BeenThereDoneThat74, MSN, RN]

It's probably been said already, but there is something that we need to consider: this is the only life that these people know. This is what their parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents, and peers are living. Why would they think there is something wrong with this, unless an outside influence tells them otherwise? I am in no way condoning or defending their actions, but we need to consider this. If you are of the belief that father (or mother) knows best, and your teachers, clergy and everyone else you come in contact with is living this lifestyle, why would you think there is something wrong with it?

I am not at all familiar with this lifestyle (living in New YorkCity), but as you can imagine, I am in contact with many other 'lifestyles' that are not reflective of my own. When it comes to religion, there is so much diversity in my community. And how do you explain that to a child? I hope I do not offend, but if a child asks the question "which is right" and you are of the firm belief that yours is right, then how do you explain that to your child? Sure you can say 'this is what mommy and daddy believe", but how do you make it convincing enough? If you practice a religion where you 'dress the part', what do you tell your child when they want to expose their hair, or arms and legs, because their classmates do? Just some food for thought.

[futuregaspasser]

I actually go to school in their city on the Utah/Arizona boarder. They call themselves sister-wives. It does become very difficult in certain situations. I work in the OR and we have to have a parent with minors (under 18), and a parent signature on the consent form. One time we had a 15 year old female come in with her "husband", but they were not legally married as she was not the first wife. So he could not sign for consent to surgery and neither could she legally. We also had a young boy come in with his "sister-mom" his biological mom had gone home (over an hour away). Same situation, she could not sign or give consent. She was very upset that we were persistant for his bio mom (or dad).

I understand they have different religious points of view, but they need to figure a way to abide by the laws we ALL have to follow. I am not trying to be predjudice here, as I said, I go to school in their city and know many of them. But please don't be upset with US when we are just following the legal guidlines when it comes to medical care.