I did something stupid... no, embarrassing and stupid

Nurses General Nursing

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Okay, first I want to make it clear that this is not a thread about religion. Please, let's not discuss our personal views of religion, that isn't my topic.

Here is my problem. I have two patients, D and J. D and J (I'm serious here folks) share the same biological mother and they share the same husband. D is preggers with her 17th child and J is preggers with her 14th child. There are several other wives to this gentleman but they aren't my patients.

Today I was talking to the MD office getting some orders (home infusion co,) and although the topic was J I mentioned something I needed for D as well. The woman on the phone acted confused and I was trying to explain their relationship tactfully. I started to say that D was going to borrow something from her ... frie... sist... umm... suddenly I drew a total blank at how they would refer to one another. I finally blurted out "co-wives!" Oh geez, what an idiot I am. The stuttering and stammering on my part was not intentional, I was actually looking for a respectful term and I wasn't coming up with anything and the more I stammered trying to find the right term the more it looked like I was looking for a smart remark or insulting term. It felt like this went on for a long time but it was really just seconds. The more I realized what a butt I was making of myself the more I stuttered and couldn't come up with a word.

Finally the woman on the phone kindly reminded me that we are all women and they are just like me. Just women. She did think I was trying to come up with an insulting remark. She was also tactfully telling me that she is also one of many wives to the same husband.

I just came clean with her. I said look, I don't know how I am going to get out of this one other than to apologize. I was trying to come up with a respectful term and I drew a blank. I am so very sorry. She laughed and told me she was used to this. I did explain that I just froze and nothing bright was coming to mind. I really was looking for a respectful term.

She laughed and said not to worry, she believed me. But she just asked me one question, would I please just promise her one thing. I said sure, what is it? She asked that I not believe everything I see and hear in the media. She said it just isn't like the media makes this out to be.

A little history. I live in Arizona and there are parts of AZ that have Mormons that believe in this lifestyle. There has been a great deal of media coverage on this and the are blasting these folks. I really don't know much about this lifestyle but today I realized I need to learn about it.

I am in serious need of a lesson in culture here. I point blank admitted this to the woman on the phone. She said she would see what she could find. I was looking for something to read and understand their point of view. She said she would do some checking and let me know.

A couple of hours later she called me and said that she came up with.. nothing. They are extremely private people and they just don't talk about their world much and they don't write about it. She asked around and pondered this since our previous conversation and she wasn't able to come up with anything.

I asked if I could ask a question and she said sure, go for it. I asked my question and she answered from her point of view.

This makes me realize, I don't want to be in that position again. I want to learn more about this but I don't know how. I want to be respectful of my patients but I'm at a loss as to how to do this.

Any suggestions for some good reading? A place where my questions will be answered? The more I understand their ways of living and thinking the better I can do for my two patients.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. And does anyone have any similar experiences?

No, that isn't accurate.

There are many many families out there and tons of last names. I don't know what the population is there but I know we have a slew of them on our caseloads. The kids are on enterals, the adults are on all kinds of meds.

The kids have a lot of genetic problems, the women have been having baby after baby for years and years and they pay for it with their health. The only really healthy folks seem to be the men. :(

That is some of the problems one see in the rural areas where the Amish live, except, that they "take care of their own" as far as food clothing, and shelter.

You rarely see them in the health care(hospital) setting unless they have a major problem.

The other difference is, they do allow their children out to decide if they want to continue to live as Amish, or, if they want to live in the "world". After sowing their wild oats, most go back to the life they were raised in. If they leave, they are banished...think orphan in a cold cruel world with no family or friends you grew up with.

I can understand how it is easier to stay than to leave.

As the article states, prosecuting will do no good, as it is a "lifestyle issue".

How do you get someone to testify against the only people who love them, the only family they know? We have had families(admittedly few) here in the city who want to prosecute the FOB when a young girl gets pregnant...but, "I love him...don't put him in jail...He is my baby's father!" The parent(s) relent, the guy (in his mid twenties or older) gets off the hook. The prosecuters have no case without a witness. As an "emancipated minor" she is now considered an adult in the eyes of the law.

Sadly, as time passes, she will find he has moved on, making more babies, and is not there for her or her baby...and the cycle continues...

How do you stop the cycle that has been going on generation after generation?

First my question is why did you feel you had to explain the relationship in the first place. All patients deserve to be treated as equals. Would you ever feel that you would have to explain people as a lesbian couple, or the preachers wife, or the trailer trash junkie. No it would be patient J or patient D. I think you hand'ed yourself fine for the slipup that happened. I also commend you for trying to research your patient population. We have all stuck our foot in our mouths at once. Like the time I walk into a room after giving someone water and found out they were NPO and I walk into the room (of a very normal sounding name like Jane smith or something) said "sorry I have to be an indian giver but the doctor doesn't want you to drink" as the work indian giver came out of my mouth I noticed the FOB was native american. We have all stuck our foot in our mouth. But I firmly belive that information that you tried to share is not pertitant information.

First my question is why did you feel you had to explain the relationship in the first place. All patients deserve to be treated as equals. Would you ever feel that you would have to explain people as a lesbian couple, or the preachers wife, or the trailer trash junkie. ...

Oh! I didn't need to explain that! That's what made the whole thing even worse! Both patients were known to the woman I was talking to on the phone. I SHOULD have just said D or J, but noooooo, I blew it. And the more I blew it the more I tried to fix it and the more I tried to fix it the worse it got.

I have never been in that particular position and I didn't think through what I was going to say. That was my mistake.

However, the incident did make me realize that I do need to be educated so if I do get myself into something, I can gracefully get myself out.

That is some of the problems one see in the rural areas where the Amish live, except, that they "take care of their own" as far as food clothing, and shelter.

You rarely see them in the health care(hospital) setting unless they have a major problem.

The other difference is, they do allow their children out to decide if they want to continue to live as Amish, or, if they want to live in the "world". After sowing their wild oats, most go back to the life they were raised in. If they leave, they are banished...think orphan in a cold cruel world with no family or friends you grew up with.

I can understand how it is easier to stay than to leave. ...

These are a couple of huge differences between the Amish and my folks. My folks use a LOT of welfare dollars, a huge number of them. They refer to it as 'bleeding the beast.' *WE* are the beast.

Makes it hard to care as much when you take that into account. I have to let all that go when I am talking to them. The fact that my tax dollars are going to pay for this, I am the one working hard on their behalf and yet, I'm the bad guy ... or one of them anyway. :uhoh3:

Specializes in Pediatrics.
my folks use a lot of welfare dollars, a huge number of them. they refer to it as 'bleeding the beast.' *we* are the beast.

makes it hard to care as much when you take that into account. i have to let all that go when i am talking to them. the fact that my tax dollars are going to pay for this, i am the one working hard on their behalf and yet, i'm the bad guy ... or one of them anyway. :uhoh3:

yeah, i would have a problem with that too. should i stop busting my butt, and stay home and have 14 kids. obviously, i wouldn't be able to work, so i'd have to bleed the beasts, too :angryfire . (excuse me for sounding bitter, but sometimes one can only take so much of that)

i would certainly, however, keep my mouth shut, if i were caring for them. but i have no reason to here.

people are so afraid to ask others about their culture, that we may offend them. but isn't it better to know, won't it make you a more effective caregiver, if you can understand why people practice the way they do? and don't you think those who are different (from you, the nurse) would want their caregivers to know about their culture? if they are not ashamed, i'd think they would

I thought the Amish were a generally healthy population, because of all the physical labor. I know there are genetic problems but my overall impression is that they are not difficult to care for clinically or emotionally.

As others have said . . . polygamy is a sexual choice, lifestyle choice, whatever. I don't care what happens behind closed doors, BETWEEN ADULTS. The marriage of 14-year-olds is sexual abuse of a child and as nurses we have a responsibility to report it. I guess probably nothing much can be done, because the girls probably "consent," but it is too horrible a thing for me not to at least file a social services report.

I thought the Amish were a generally healthy population, because of all the physical labor. I know there are genetic problems but my overall impression is that they are not difficult to care for clinically or emotionally.

As others have said . . . polygamy is a sexual choice, lifestyle choice, whatever. I don't care what happens behind closed doors, BETWEEN ADULTS. The marriage of 14-year-olds is sexual abuse of a child and as nurses we have a responsibility to report it. I guess probably nothing much can be done, because the girls probably "consent," but it is too horrible a thing for me not to at least file a social services report.

You are right however... it doesn't do any good. That is one of the big stinks going on around here now. People are screaming about this, if these folks were living smack in the middle of Phoenix then all the adults would be in jail and the kids in foster care. But since it is happening in Colorado City, it is somehow okay.

You have to remember, this city is also run by the same folks breaking the laws. If you report illegal behavior to the police chief, you must take into account he has several wives of his own. The medical facilities are also run by people with the same beliefs as their patients. I have never cared for anyone from there before my current job and my two ladies are 38 and 40.

People are screaming about this, they want to know why the state of Arizona or the gov't isn't doing anything and nobody can/will provide answers.

Keep in mind, no serious efforts by the state have been made since 1953. The governor is the one that pushed the issue and he was voted out of office in the next election.

People keep asking why and nobody is responding. The issue of the child not helping police is a non issue. The husband is 60 and she is 14. Nobody needs her help, the evidence is she is preggers and DNA shows who the father is. That's really all they need yet they still do nothing.

It is just all very sad.

I thought the Amish were a generally healthy population, because of all the physical labor. I know there are genetic problems but my overall impression is that they are not difficult to care for clinically or emotionally.

As others have said . . . polygamy is a sexual choice, lifestyle choice, whatever. I don't care what happens behind closed doors, BETWEEN ADULTS. The marriage of 14-year-olds is sexual abuse of a child and as nurses we have a responsibility to report it. I guess probably nothing much can be done, because the girls probably "consent," but it is too horrible a thing for me not to at least file a social services report.

Amish have a lot of inbreeding, leading to congenital defects.

These are a couple of huge differences between the Amish and my folks. My folks use a LOT of welfare dollars, a huge number of them. They refer to it as 'bleeding the beast.' *WE* are the beast.

Makes it hard to care as much when you take that into account. I have to let all that go when I am talking to them. The fact that my tax dollars are going to pay for this, I am the one working hard on their behalf and yet, I'm the bad guy ... or one of them anyway. :uhoh3:

I just meant in terms of the family "lifestyle" causative factors, and how we are limited in what we can do for the families affected by this, within the constraints of their belief systems...

Yes, it is most annoying to see my tax dollars going to support people who choose to live like your patients. We have a welfare system that is so used and abused...a whole other issue...

Amish have a lot of inbreeding, leading to congenital defects.

Hi Un!

Same goes with my patients as well. They don't want new blood mixed in there and if I remember this well it has something to do with their bloodline being from Joseph or whoever he was. They want their bloodlines pure but the problem is they are marrying off these little girls to their cousins and uncles. The genetic problems are getting worse all the time. It's really very sad.

I just meant in terms of the family "lifestyle" causative factors, and how we are limited in what we can do for the families affected by this, within the constraints of their belief systems...

Yes, it is most annoying to see my tax dollars going to support people who choose to live like your patients. We have a welfare system that is so used and abused...a whole other issue...

I have to admit, my problem/issue/whatever you want to call it is that my tax dollars go toward this and my honest and sincere efforts with their healthcare and yet I'm one of the 'beasts' they refer to when they talk about bleeding the beast.

My only disagreement with their lifestyle is regarding the children. Otherwise as several here have said... what consenting adults do behind closed doors really *is* their business. Kids... that's a whole new ballgame.

I will admit I only read the first couple posts incl. the op's, however in the words of George Carlin (not a fan but friends had him on TV) we now say passed on instead of dead, seasoned citizen instead of old etc point being we have watered down everything to the point nothing has meaning. I think the op has nothing to apologize for and /or explain (especially since her intent was not meant to be insulting) and we spend entirely too much time worrying about "possibly" insulting a small group of people (even in private, eg not with the pt present even) that we are rendered ineffective. For example to explain, etc this required time and the person on the other end of the phone wasted valuable time that could have been spent efficiently performing duties assigned.

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