Different pay and responsibility for 2 year RN's VS 4 year RN's - page 15

I'm completing an RN to BSN program in 2 months. I have learned so much in the BSN program I wish I had taken it sooner. The additional education has taught me skills I never learned in trainings,... Read More

  1. by   SmilingBluEyes
    originally posted by skm-nursiepooh
    sorry...but i have to disagree with ya on this one point. anyone can educate themselves about any subject matter they want just by going to their neighborhood library...order self help books...or learn how to speak a foriegn language by using books/tapes/computer software....if they desire enrichment. i think the difference about being forced to take a course on spanish war or literature in order to go towards a nursing degree is what's sore for a lot of folks.

    i do appreciate the value of education...really i do...i'm just a bit peeved with some of the games that colleges & universities play in order for folks to receive their respective degrees (all disciplines). why do some programs &/or degrees require "x" amount of elective courses...& others require "y" amount? i'm not speaking of the basic english, college level math, sciences including social sciences....i'm speaking of taking stuff like swimming or aerobics classes for pe (which some h.s. have dropped as a requirement for graduation) or taking floral arranging for example. some colleges & universities have varying standards as to how many credits each of these type of elective classes are worth....some schools will give one credit for a p.e. class...others will give three credits. should the p.e. class weigh as much as a major class? what happens to the student who physically can't pass a p.e. class? what happens if a student is terrible at arranging flowers? what...should they not graduate because they lack one to three credits for p.e....or they lack creativity? these examples i know are exteme...but i personally know some folks whom had their gpa knocked down because they received a c- in a p.e. course. i mean...shouldn't this be about academia & what one learn?

    and of course...the above paragraph isn't directed at you susy...i'm basically asking these retorical questions collectively. i just disagreed with your statement regarding the only way one will learn about a subject is by going to college &/ or university.

    cheers!
    moe
    i said all this in another thread and more. i agree, if i want to learn of these things, i can do so (and do) much more cheaply at my local library. i want a nursing education without all the games, thanks. it is hard to do. i am an adult; i pay for my classes, raise kids, take care of a military spouse who is also going to school---i don't have all day to sit in my dorm or apartment by myself, to read, study and do school work when i am not in class. like other adult learners, i have a life and have to live it and classes are a very small part of that. the day a university fully recognizes this, i would pay all the tuition in the world to attend that very school. never happen, too stuck in their ivory towers, i am afraid.:zzzzz
  2. by   J-RN student
    Deb...
  3. by   SmilingBluEyes
    and I do agree...personal attacks have NO place in intelligent debate, period. I am sorry for that, Nikki. I in no way agreed w/your first post, however, I am not willing to attack you personally in my attempt to make a point.

    I think many of us forget ONE important thing in ANY form of communication; that is to LISTEN to to the OTHER point of view, REALLY LISTEN. That MEANS reading the post to UNDERSTAND--- NOT TO REFUTE--- or form an ARGUMENT first. This, goes back to your question about us being like a bunch of crabs in the bucket. Nikki, it is a BIG problem we have in nursing and many other areas. NO ONE really LISTENS, we are only too busy forming arguments or statements in our minds. We are too diverse a group to settle for that sort of behavior......and.... Intelligent and stimulating communication or debate relies on our ability to see this and understand where the other person is coming from, even if we cannot agree. I for one, admire most the person who has the best listening skills, NOT THE BEST or most articulate argument.

    That said, I think we can carry on debate w/o the personal, nasty, bytchy remarks, can't we? Let's police ourselves so the moderators can concentrate on more important things to do.
  4. by   PennyLane
    Originally posted by SmilingBluEyes
    and I do agree...personal attacks have NO place in intelligent debate, period. I am sorry for that, Nikki. I in no way agreed w/your first post, however, I am not willing to attack you personally in my attempt to make a point.

    I think many of us forget ONE important thing in ANY form of communication; that is to LISTEN to to the OTHER point of view, REALLY LISTEN. That MEANS reading the post to UNDERSTAND--- NOT TO REFUTE--- or form an ARGUMENT first. This, goes back to your question about us being like a bunch of crabs in the bucket. Nikki, it is a BIG problem we have in nursing and many other areas. NO ONE really LISTENS, we are only too busy forming arguments or statements in our minds. We are too diverse a group to settle for that sort of behavior......and.... Intelligent and stimulating communication or debate relies on our ability to see this and understand where the other person is coming from, even if we cannot agree. I for one, admire most the person who has the best listening skills, NOT THE BEST or most articulate argument.

    That said, I think we can carry on debate w/o the personal, nasty, bytchy remarks, can't we? Let's police ourselves so the moderators can concentrate on more important things to do.
    Good post. And I agree. I love a good debate, but only when conversing with good debaters. Point, counterpoint. Not in-your-face you're wrong hahaha you lose, I win tactics.

  5. by   nursecheryl
    ya know, generally, l am an easy going person, out spoken and direct, but l don't tend to get riled easy...but these kinds of narrow thinking elitest attitudes MAKE ME CRAZY and are to blame for the flames on this topic......what else do you think will happen when you insult someone then cover it up with..."l'm just voicing my oppinion"..?. guess that's what the ignore feture is for....l hope l mis-read the intentions of the poster.(feb9822)..surely they are not truely that clueless........ LR

    Above is much better than I could say how I feel. Sorry, I agree I wasn't being professional or mature with the previous post. I was not threatening that I would cause her a problem on the floors. But I happen to know this is what will happen if the wrong nurse see's her. I'm sure I'd say something to her though if I ever ran across her. As for telling me to stay out of your conversation. :roll
    Last edit by nursecheryl on Feb 13, '03
  6. by   EmeraldNYL
    Sally, thanks so much for that story. That would have been really, really frusturating but I guess it is important to remember not to take things personally. Thanks.
  7. by   w8liftinglady
    Originally posted by kasey14546
    <snip> The 2 year RN should not be in leadeership or management positions since they have not been trained in accredeited colleges for this skill. The BSN has. I'm sure the 2 yers RN's will disagree with me, and 2 years ago I would have disagreed also. However, after being able to compare the two from personal experience, I feel the BSN is more educated for leadership and management. The BSN nurse should be paid more, and should be the starting educational level for these positions.
    Personally,I would welcome the requirement of a BSN for management-I have been a head nurse of a busy ICU for 5 years,then a house supervisor for the last 10 years,and now a staff nurse in ICU,all with an ADN.Let me tell you, BSN grads can have the management jobs-they suck!For example,our head nurse puts in about 50-60 hours a week,with 24 hour responsibility for the unit-for a SALARY which translates to about $14.00/hr.Combine that with the grief administration gives her about agency and overtime(I mean,she DOES try to staff us),the mandatory reports due monthly,playing referee between employess,trying to do a halfway decent schedule-all for the glamour of wearing a suit(which she abandons when someone calls in or doesn't show up).
    She confided in me yesterday that she is interviewing for a staff nurse position-like so many other <former> managers I know.The freedom of doing three shifts a week,and getting to leave it all at the office...for the same pay...:roll
    Last edit by w8liftinglady on Feb 14, '03
  8. by   CCURN
    From what I have seen of new grad BSN nurses, they appear to be the same as AD nurses when they first start. A staff nurse should be paid the same if they do the same job etc......However BSN are more likely to attain management position, and they should do, they receive more management experie
    nce during there training in the USA. Most management positions wherever you go ask for a degree.
    I have met a few questionable BSN nurses in my time, and AD nurses. Whether they should be paid more is a dilemma
  9. by   Q.
    Like other adult learners, I Have a LIFE and have to LIVE it and classes are a very small part of that. The day a university fully recognizes this, I would pay all the tuition in the world to attend THAT very school. Never happen, too stuck in their Ivory Towers, I am afraid
    Deb, many universities do recognize this. I am an adult learner attending one such program. I work full time and have many other family obligations, but I am able to attend classes in the evenings. I know my school is not alone in this. I also don't think having the majority of undergraduate courses during the day, to accomodate the general needs of the student body, which are 20 something year olds who work evenings, or students who are full time graduate students, like some of my co-workers, who attending school is their life right now is "Ivory Tower" at all.

    But this still has nothing to do with general ed requirements.
    Last edit by Susy K on Feb 14, '03
  10. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Originally posted by Susy K
    Deb, many universities do recognize this. I am an adult learner attending one such program. I work full time and have many other family obligations, but I am able to attend classes in the evenings. I know my school is not alone in this. I also don't think having the majority of undergraduate courses during the day, to accomodate the general needs of the student body, which are 20 something year olds who work evenings, or students who are full time graduate students, like some of my co-, who attending school is their life right now is "Ivory Tower" at all.

    But this still has nothing to do with general ed requirements.
    Suzy, if the desire is to make us all BSNs ( and I don't think that is a BAD thing), then they best accomodate more than the 20-something population. Fortunately, some are coming around having online classes. THAT is a HUGE step in the right direction.

    I remember, my first RN-BSN class, some of us were late coming back from lunch. I was trying to settle my bill w/the admissions office, which had to be done prior to purchasing books, which they Being a veteran, I had to attend class before my GI BILL would kick in at all to pay, so I had to do this that day. These were Books we going to be using THAT afternoon that she said we had to use our lunch hour to purchase.

    We came in and the professor chided us like children, saying no one must be late for her class or she locks the door, in front of the whole class. After class, I VERY POLITELY explained the situation with us (all 3 of us had the same problem) and she said "I don't care" . Dropped the class that day, paying snobs like this good money to demonstrate such attitudes is NOT on my agenda. That is a fault of mine I guess...I won't tolerate such attitudes from people. We (about 35 or 40 of us), WERE ALL RETURNING STUDENTS, AVERAGE AGE 40 or so , in there. If I miss 15 minutes of class, my loss, but you don't treat adults that way. I don't know why, but such game-playing is a hallmark of so many nursing programs. I had already gone thru 2+ years of that in my AD program; damned if I was going to endure yet another semester that way.

    THAT is what I mean by ACCOMODATING ADULT LEARNERS.....and oh yes, QUIT with the fru-fru classes that have NOTHING AT TO DO WITH MY MAJOR now. I can and do learn that by reading BOOKS. I don't have the time or money to pay them to educate me in what I can learn on my own. Yes, they are in IVORY TOWERS, many of them, and til they come down, many adult-learners like me will continue to be turned off by this ...it is a HUGE barrier to some of us, whether anyone recognizes this or not.:stone
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Feb 14, '03
  11. by   l.rae
    Originally posted by nursecheryl
    ya know, generally, l am an easy going person, out spoken and direct, but l don't tend to get riled easy...but these kinds of narrow thinking elitest attitudes MAKE ME CRAZY and are to blame for the flames on this topic......what else do you think will happen when you insult someone then cover it up with..."l'm just voicing my oppinion"..?. guess that's what the ignore feture is for....l hope l mis-read the intentions of the poster.(feb9822)..surely they are not truely that clueless........ LR

    Above is much better than I could say how I feel. Sorry, I agree I wasn't being professional or mature with the previous post. I was not threatening that I would cause her a problem on the floors. But I happen to know this is what will happen if the wrong nurse see's her. I'm sure I'd say something to her though if I ever ran across her. As for telling me to stay out of your conversation. :roll
    nursecheryl.....l do not recall in my posts telling you to stay out of my conversation.....go back and re- read....l think you have mistaken me with another poster.....anyhoo....your post about ppl recognizing pics and retribution was worded carelessly and l think some can easily take a threat.....happy that you clarified that.....one reason l do not post my pic avatar here is exactly that....ppl can be wicked...l have worked with nurses who would have eaten someone alive if they got wind of an "attitude"...it would be sad to start a new job and have co-workers disrespect you from the get-go cause you put your foot in it on the www:chuckle ....but things like that can happen....is this what you meant?........LR
  12. by   nurseinstructor
    Originally posted by SmilingBluEyes
    (quote)
    "If I miss 15 minutes of class, my loss, but you don't treat adults that way"

    I realize that you felt you had a good reason to be late to class that day--and you did. But looking from the instructors point of view--students who show up late for class aren't just causing "their loss"--they disrupt the entire class while they find their seat, get out their books, ask where we are in lecture, etc. I find it terribly disrespectful to all the other students when people are chronically and continually late for class.
    I realize you are talking about a one time deal--but the instructor most likely has had to deal with tardiness over and over--and seeing as how it was the first day of class--I am sure she wanted to make her expectations known.
  13. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Originally posted by nurseinstructor
    Originally posted by SmilingBluEyes
    (quote)
    "If I miss 15 minutes of class, my loss, but you don't treat adults that way"

    I realize that you felt you had a good reason to be late to class that day--and you did. But looking from the instructors point of view--students who show up late for class aren't just causing "their loss"--they disrupt the entire class while they find their seat, get out their books, ask where we are in lecture, etc. I find it terribly disrespectful to all the other students when people are chronically and continually late for class.
    I realize you are talking about a one time deal--but the instructor most likely has had to deal with tardiness over and over--and seeing as how it was the first day of class--I am sure she wanted to make her expectations known.
    Ok I gotta ask you; if I walk in quietly, sit at the back of the room, quietly play catch-up, and NOT disturb anyone HOW is this a problem for the professor? I PAY HER TUITION and I don't include being humiliated like a child in said tuition. I know theirs is not an easy job, but hey, I make the choice not to play these games, as an adult. I one day hope to be an instructor and will well remember what NOT to do w/the adults I am teaching. IF they are distuptive, that is another story. I WAS NOT. AND, My reasons were unavoidable; (not just "good" as you put it); she could have handled it much better. The students who preceded me said she was like this all the time. And she taught several classes in the RN-BSN component so I knew this would not be the end of this. So, I elected OUT of this sort of garbage, out of that university, and into an ONLINE schedule at another, competing university, same state. They may not care, but they lost $1000s when I dropped out of that program. I lost some time, but also the aggravation of it all,too. This one that works for me, does not berate me for tardiness, and works in MY schedule. But thanks for your input.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Feb 14, '03

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