Artificial feeding-Terri Schiavo

Nurses General Nursing

Published

I posted this here becaue I think this subject is something that we as nurses deal with on a regular basis.....Many many people state that they have a big problem with the feeding being stopped "allowing her to starve to death" The Vatican says " To starve her to death is pitiless" Most everyone agrees that it is one's right to refuse to initiate artificial feeding but somehow this situation "is different" How? The patient "starves to death " in both cases-so why has this one galvanized the WORLD? My husband read me a quote from the Bible -forgive me because I can't remember it in detail-it was something along the lines that a woman marries and leaves her father's house and her husband becomes her family....My husband is my POA I hope no-one in my family questions his motives -He KNOWS exactly what I want....I can't question her husbands motives-I know that some suspect foul play and state the results of a bone scan support this...That bone scan was obtained 53 months after she went into her coma-after her body suffered the effects of her eating disorders for a number of years.... Her present level of responsiveness does not pertain to this matter IMHO-she CAN'T eat naturally--she did not ever want to "be kept alive like that " and she can't state otherwise at this point...So- #1 can someone PLEASE make me see why this case is" DIFFERENT" and #2 How do YOU support your patients and their loved ones when they are agonizing over this decision? ONe thing I always ask is "Did your loved one ever give you any idea of what they would want if something like this happened" and if they did then I advocate that stance for that pt as much possible.......I believe that death is the last great trip we'll go on and we should PLAN it as much as possible.The greatest GIFT we can give to our loved ones is an itinerary...........

Specializes in OB, lactation.

Fergus, interesting to think about the parents vs. the spouses rights. I am not a religious person but I would think that the Bible ranks parents above spouses... it made it into the ten commandments whereas the spouse did not. Of course the law doesn't agree and that's what we have to go with. Just very interesting to think about, lots of angles... your parents will love you when your spouse doesn't anymore, parents will (generally) never eschew you, but a spouse will.

I am on the fence about the case, don't feel like I know enough to form an opinion.

My point of anger surrounding this case has to do with the husband. First off, I truly believe her husband is partly why she is the way that she is. he definetly had something to do with it. Secondly, her parents say that she has been denied rehab, even though there was plenty of money for her rehab. The husband has stated multiple times that there is hardly anything left and that he stands to gain NOTHING from her death. well then if you stand to gain nothing then why don't you divorce and go make your life with the other women???? Terri's parents have offered him tons of things including lots of money yet he still refuses to divorce her. Also, I have read several articles and watched a family when the feeding tube was removed. this not a painless death, yes you are dehydrated but you are also starving. TPN is nutrition. i watched my great-great aunt die an agonizing death. nose bleeds, dry heaves, and severe hunger pains. this was the most disgusting thing i have every witnessed. I have read many articles about this. Sure, people in a persistant vegitative state don't feel any of this. Terri is not in a persistant vegetative state. I truly believe her husband refused her any rehab because he was scared she would one day be able to tell everyone what he did. I only hope something happens soon so this poor girl doesn't have to go through this and her parent's won't have to watch. we know her husband won't be there. from what i have read her husband hasn't been to see her in a few years.

Specializes in Pediatrics, Nursing Education.
Fergus, interesting to think about the parents vs. the spouses rights. I am not a religious person but I would think that the Bible ranks parents above spouses... it made it into the ten commandments whereas the spouse did not. Of course the law doesn't agree and that's what we have to go with. Just very interesting to think about, lots of angles... your parents will love you when your spouse doesn't anymore, parents will (generally) never eschew you, but a spouse will.

I am on the fence about the case, don't feel like I know enough to form an opinion.

i thought in the bible that the woman left her family to "cleave" and become one with her husband?

I was looking and it says that it has been offered by various professionals to come and perform various rehab therapies for FREE. PT, OT, dental for FREE. They would even come to her. He still refuses.

I never really had too much of an interest in this case, but it intrigues me. I was looking at a timeline. In 1997, he annouced his engagement to the "other" woman in July, and in August sent his notification to the family that he was withdrawling the feeding tube.

Hummm??

I was right about my theory about denying antibiotics. He's refused them at least twice before.

What makes me madder than heck though is that the judge is not allowing the family to feed her by mouth after the tube feeding is withdrawn on the 18th. They state that she doesn't have problems swallowing...

www.terrisfight.org is a pretty good website by the family. They have all the court docs in PDF format on the website, along with a timeline that shows all kinds of goodies.

Specializes in OB, lactation.
i thought in the bible that the woman left her family to "cleave" and become one with her husband?

www.terrisfight.org is a pretty good website by the family. They have all the court docs in PDF format on the website, along with a timeline that shows all kinds of goodies.

Yeah I think so, I certainly am not an authority on the Bible even though I brought that up :) But even if people come together in marraige, respect for elders still seems pretty high on the priority list, no? I would think in old timey religion that that spouse would be expected to go with the elder's (parents) word.

Again, I'm not religious so that doesn't really mean a hill of beans to me.

But I just can see several angles to the spouse vs. parental rights thing... same thing with the idea of what is "natural"... that idea can vary from person to person too... to me, a mother would "naturally" nurse and try to care for her child no matter what. First do no harm, right? On the other hand, you could say in "nature", she would die because she can't care for herself (then what about babies?). On and on...

I don't know if the videos on that terrisfight.org site are really representative of her state, but I could never let my kid go if that's the way they were - she is maybe in an infantile state in those videos but not vegetative at all IMO. And from the vidoes, I would think that therapy would be helpful, if not mentally, at least physically. I would love to be able to talk with someone who really knows the real deal with this case, a nurse at the hospice, etc etc...

Good debate material, I feel for everyone in that kind of situation.

Fergus, interesting to think about the parents vs. the spouses rights. I am not a religious person but I would think that the Bible ranks parents above spouses... it made it into the ten commandments whereas the spouse did not. Of course the law doesn't agree and that's what we have to go with. Just very interesting to think about, lots of angles... your parents will love you when your spouse doesn't anymore, parents will (generally) never eschew you, but a spouse will.

I am on the fence about the case, don't feel like I know enough to form an opinion.

Unfortunately unconditional love doesn't come from all parents. I know more than a few people who have terrible, hateful relationships with their parents or their adult children. Parents all want to think that they know best and know everything about their children, but that isn't always the case. Again, if these parents had such a close relationship with their daughter, wouldn't they have known that her husband was beating her? Wouldn't they have known about an eating disorder? Could their upbringing have contributed to her problems? I don't know. I just think people are so quick to put suspicion on the husband, but they never dare to question the parents.

Also, sometimes a parent's love makes them unable to let go. I've seen so many parents put their needs above their infant's because they just can't bear to suffer the grief of losing a child. It's heartbreaking when you can see parents in total denial and you know that the end will come one way or another but they just can't accept it. I don't know if that's the case here or not, but it's certainly a possibility.

I have mixed feelings about this case. My feelings and thoughts have changed some. The thing that bothers me the most about this case is her husband. I don't think Terri's husband is looking out for her best intrest. I think he is being spiteful and is out to hurt the parents. If they are willing to take over her care I don't think they should be denied that. It would be different if her husband hadn't moved on with his life, but hasn't he remarried?

On the other hand..........I still feel that living the way she is isn't living and maybe the best thing would be to allow the feeding tube to be removed. I don't feel like it is being cruel, it is done all the time. However I can't say what I would do in that situation. I think letting go of your child would be the most difficult thing in the world to do.

Such a sad case. I tell my parents and husband everyday what I would want done in a situation like that. I also have a advanced directive.

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He hasnt remarried. That is one of the problems. As long as he is married to her, he makes the decisions.

He refused to divorce her yet has started another family.

Terri's family is trying to have the courts nullify her marriage since enough time has gone by that he can legally be called a bigamist since he now has common law marriage status with this other woman.

Unfortunately unconditional love doesn't come from all parents. I know more than a few people who have terrible, hateful relationships with their parents or their adult children. Parents all want to think that they know best and know everything about their children, but that isn't always the case. Again, if these parents had such a close relationship with their daughter, wouldn't they have known that her husband was beating her? Wouldn't they have known about an eating disorder? Could their upbringing have contributed to her problems? I don't know. I just think people are so quick to put suspicion on the husband, but they never dare to question the parents.

Also, sometimes a parent's love makes them unable to let go. I've seen so many parents put their needs above their infant's because they just can't bear to suffer the grief of losing a child. It's heartbreaking when you can see parents in total denial and you know that the end will come one way or another but they just can't accept it. I don't know if that's the case here or not, but it's certainly a possibility.

Usually women who are abused keep it a secret - even from parents. And eating disorders aren't easy to spot either. I'm not sure it is fair to blame the parents for not knowing about either, if they existed.

This is such a complicated story. And sad.

When a child is healthy but brain damaged, doctors used to encourage parents to put them in institutions. Now parents raise these children themselves. We have some local families with kids who have a variety of disabilities. One child with contractures and seizures who cannot talk or eat. She has a feeding tube. She is incontinent. But they pack her up and take her out into the community. She goes to her sibling's ballgames. She acts alot like Terri looks in those videos. I'd say her parents are heros for taking care of her like that, valuing her life, keeping her a part of the family. Because someone is brain damaged doesn't mean their life has no meaning.

On the otherhand, who would want to live like that?

I have a friend who's daughter was without oxygen during labor/delivery and had cerebral palsy . . .she would have been a different kid if not for the deprivation of oxygen but does that make who she is now less important or of less value?

I hate to use the phrase but the slope can get really slippery if we start to allow the state to kill people by removing feeding tubes.

steph

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.
......but does that make who she is now less important or of less value?

steph

So much for me staying out of the conversation. And I did have a long response which I just erased.

Let me just say, those that allow a death to occur value their loved one's life as much as those who keep a person alive in a vegetative state. It's an agonizing, heartbreaking decision, which takes a lot of love and courage. IMO

No one is saying, their life has no value, so let's just kill them. I wouldn't say to my dad or spouse "I know longer value your life and am going to pull the plug".

I humbly of course respect if that's how you look at it. Howver, it's not that way for all of us.

So much for me staying out of the conversation. And I did have a long response which I just erased.

Let me just say, those that allow a death to occur value their loved one's life as much as those who keep a person alive in a vegetative state. It's an agonizing, heartbreaking decision, which takes a lot of love and courage. IMO

No one is saying, their life has no value, so let's just kill them. I wouldn't say to my dad or spouse "I know longer value your life and am going to pull the plug".

I humbly of course respect if that's how you look at it. Howver, it's not that way for all of us.

I don't think people who allow death to naturally occur do not value their loved one. I have been involved in a situation with a friend hit by a drunk driver. He was brain dead but on a vent. His parents and siblings decided after much agonizing to take him off the vent. He died shortly thereafter. I think that took great courage.

I just see removing a feeding tube from a person not terminally ill as different. I DON'T think those that decide to do so do not care. I DO suspect Terri's husband's motives. But she is not terminally ill, brain dead or relying on a vent to breath. This just feels different to me. I don't believe that disabled, but conscious and self-breathing people who can't physically feed themselves or verbally express their desire to live, but who have left no written legal directions as to their destiny in such circumstances, should be starved/dehydrated to death. What is the urgency to let her die anyway? Why not just let her parents take over? I don't get that. At all. Is it ethical to starve/dehydrate a person simply because they cannot feed themselves? All these thoughts keep running through my mind - what is the big hurry??

I know this hits you deeply . .I respect that. I've said this is complicated and that I wouldn't want to end up like Terri.

Ok - I keep having this weird spooky feeling that since I've said that so many times, something might just happen to me. Like tomorrow I drive to another softball game with my daughter and the drive is about 2 1/2 hours and what if I was in an accident :rolleyes: . Well at least if something happened, y'all would know my wishes. :)

Anyway Tweety, I mean no disrespect for your feelings.

steph

Specializes in Med-Surg, Trauma, Ortho, Neuro, Cardiac.

Steph, you've been very respectful, and I've tryed to respect your feelings as too.

I too am suspect of Terri's husband. Not that he wants to pull the tube, but that he wants to pull the tube so many years later in total defiance of her parents. I agree for him to have closure, why not divorce her and sign custodoy over to her parents.

We'll just disagree about some other stuff, and that's o.k. We're both getting our two cents in. (And we'd both better watch it, as we've put in quite a bit of two cents on this issues. :))

I just wonder about the new "wife, girlfriend," whatever she is and what kind of a person she is to get involved with a man like this? I certainly wouldn't want him to raise my children! Maybe she can't see past the $$$$$ either. (So very sad by the way, I hope that Terri comes back and haunts him.)

I work on a Long-Term Ventilator unit and what I hate is when they want to shut off the feeding, but keep them on the vent. I don't see the justification. I guess if they pull the plug they feel guilty, but I still don't get it. :confused:

I wonder if they are subverting God's will for her life??? That's no way to live day in --day out, decade after decade....

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