Am I Wrong?

Nurses General Nursing

Published

........or isn't Ambien 5 mg., Sonata 10 mg, and Rozerem (a new sleep medication) just a bit much to give a 90-something-year-old patient every night at bedtime?

Here's my concern. The patient in question is one of 43 residents in my assisted living facility, and she has a daughter who has literally controlled every aspect of her care for several years now. This apparently includes circumventing our medication administration system to obtain sleep medications for her mother that are left at the bedside, plus the Rozerem we give her every night. The resident herself has VERY poor vision, a fair amount of memory loss, and as far as I'm concerned she is not safe to have these things in her room. We give her her stool softeners and her heart medications because she supposedly is too demented to self-administer........but we're allowing her to have several varieties of sleeping pills??!!

The daughter---who is not a nurse, but a food-science professor at the university---pops the Sonata and the Ambien for her each night and puts them in a cup for her to take when she wants them, then staff delivers the Rozerem at 8 pm and that also gets left at the bedside. Not only do I fear what could happen if a couple nights' sleepers are 'forgotten' and then taken all at once, that's just WAY too much medication for a frail elderly woman. The Sonata alone would snow me, and I'm half this woman's age and twice her size (and I'll bet my liver and kidneys function a heck of a lot better in the bargain). I can just imagine the daughter going nuclear if Mom falls and breaks her hip, or accidentally OD's.........well, I'm sorry, but I don't want to be held responsible when something bad happens.

What's even more frustrating is, I had a talk with the daughter today, and she SO does not understand why I have issues with all of this. She thinks that because there is a doctor's order OK'ing the sleepers to be handled in this fashion, I shouldn't object. She doesn't get that the facility is legally responsible for her mother's care, or that as an RN, I MUST refuse to carry out an order that I believe to be inappropriate, or even that her mother is declining both cognitively and physically to the point where it's not safe to "do things the way we've always done them".

My administrator and I have drawn up a managed-risk agreement that essentially makes the daughter assume responsibility for any bad outcomes, but I still don't feel right about it.......I mean, it's partially about covering our behinds, but it's also about NOT giving in to what I feel is over-medication. I've been in geriatrics too long not to know what happens to frail elderly folks who take too much and too many meds, and even though both the resident and her daughter want all of this, I feel a responsibility to protect her from herself here.

I don't know, maybe I'm too conservative; I realize I've only been at this facility 8 months, and this daughter's iron-fisted control has apparently not been challenged during the three years the resident has been there. But I'm less worried about alienating her than I am about her mother's safety, and yes, our liability if something happens to her as a result of taking three different types of sleep medications. I know it's not a personal thing, and I don't take it personally, but I admit it does irritate me that the daughter seems to think she knows more than I do about meds, and she will do an end run around me and/or the system to get whatever she thinks her mother should have, whenever she thinks Mom should have it.

So..........am I wrong in thinking this is too much medication, and how can I make sure we are not held liable if and when things go sideways? I've faxed the NP who ordered the Sonata and Rozerem to find out if she's even aware that the resident is on Ambien; I suspect not, because she's seen the resident only once and I'm sure knows only what the daughter has told her. I've also documented all of this in the chart, and written up the managed risk agreement........beyond that, well, I'm hoping some of you will have some ideas.

It just goes to show ya, no matter how long you practice or how much you think you know, there's always more to learn! Thank you!

Specializes in ICU, PICC Nurse, Nursing Supervisor.

You go girl!!!!

This is just getting better and better: I got a call from the PCP's office about two hours after hearing from the NP, and they were VERY happy to follow up with me and have us all be on the same page. I love it when I get cooperation---not only that, but now everyone is onto the daughter (the MD said "Well, she should have understood........she was there with Mrs. XX when I D/C'd the Ambien at the last appointment").

I have also thought better of the managed-risk agreement; now that the sleeping meds have been straightened out, there's no need for all this pussyfooting around---either we take control of all the meds, or the daughter comes three times a day to administer them. None of this let-the-chips-fall-where-they-may stuff: I worked too flippin' hard for my license, and I'm not going to risk my livelihood to accommodate someone who doesn't even respect the fact that I'm trying to keep her mother safe. Thanks again, to all of you!!:yeah:

Specializes in Emergency, Trauma.
Any chance daughter is diverting? Smells like diversion to me.

This was my first thought as I read this post!

Specializes in LTC, Hospice, Case Management.

I would skip faxing the MD or NP and call them up and discuss this - pronto. Wayyyyy to much meds for a 90 year old. Sounds like just the kind of family member that demands control.. until things go wrong, then will be all YOUR fault. Good luck

Specializes in Peds.
I agree. Leaving meds at the bedside is one big no-no. I'm curious...does she even take the meds that the daughter leaves at the bedside? Just to play devil's advocate for a minute....does the patient take these meds or do they mysteriously disappear in the night....or are they still there in the morning.RNAnnjeh

I too was wondering if the client is actually taking all of this....or if it was being taken home by the daughter...

Specializes in Peds.

sorry, must have hit send twice...

Marla, you da bomb! The daughter won't thank you and the mother probably can't. So we will. Thank you for being an excellent patient advocate. Thank you for looking out for your patient, yourself, your other residents, your facility, and the other practitioners. Thank you for not just looking the other way when the daughter made a stink. Thank you for setting a good example for the rest of us to speak up when we hear that "little voice," and we know something is not right. Thank you for sharing this with us so we can see a work in progress. Thank you for sparing this fragile old lady from a hip fracture or worse from oversedation.

I look forward to more updates, especially after the daughter hits the fan.

Once again, you rock!

can anyone spell fall risk ??????:idea: :uhoh3:

Specializes in Geriatrics/Alzheimer's.

I am so glad I no longer work at an assisted living facility! Too many gray areas. I love my new job at the skilled/intermediate care facility I now work for, even if it is on the nightshift. If I just took one sleeping pill I would be snowed! Three sleeping pills is way too much. Melatonin is the sleep aid for me. Poor lady no wonder she is so confused. You are right Marla, not the daughter.

Way to go Marla!! Awesome job!! The daughter will probably be none to pleased, but, hopefully she'll realize you're looking out for her mothers best interest. Thanks for being such a great pt advocate!!

Specializes in Neuro/Med-Surg/Oncology.
I heard back from the NP a little while ago, and just as I suspected, she did NOT intend for all three sleepers, plus a sub-therapeutic dose of Remeron, to be given! She D/C'd the Ambien and the Remeron, thanked me for my attention and concern, and stated she would follow up with the resident's primary care MD on another recommendation she made.

Now, of course, I get to tell the daughter to take that Ambien out of the apartment because it's been discontinued, and of course she's going to be upset because I have, for the second time, "gone over her head" to change medications. But dang it, I'M the professional here, I'M the one who knows better, and it's MY responsibility to make sure people don't come to any harm while under my care. So there.........PFFFFFFFFFFFFT!!

I know, yeah, THAT was real grown-up. :rolleyes: But having laypeople treat me as though I went to school for four years to know NOTHING is one thing that really chaps my cheeks, and the worst part of it is, this is not in the resident's best interests. Sooner or later, she'd fall and break a hip or something else, or she'd take too many at once and overdose, and guess who would be left holding the bag.........that daughter would probably be on our doorstep with her attorney first thing the next morning.

Once again, thanks to all who have offered advice thus far; I'll keep you posted as to the unfolding drama.

I'm not too familiar with ALF regulations, but I would consider wasting them with another employee rather than giving them back to the daughter. I wouldn't trust her not to be slipping them to mom behind your back. Then what kind of creek would you be up? I know if a pt brings home meds, we have to send them to pharmacy in a tamper proof bag. The only way they can only get the narcs or other controlled meds back is with a doctor's order.

Specializes in cardiac.
Marla, you da bomb! The daughter won't thank you and the mother probably can't. So we will. Thank you for being an excellent patient advocate. Thank you for looking out for your patient, yourself, your other residents, your facility, and the other practitioners. Thank you for not just looking the other way when the daughter made a stink. Thank you for setting a good example for the rest of us to speak up when we hear that "little voice," and we know something is not right. Thank you for sharing this with us so we can see a work in progress. Thank you for sparing this fragile old lady from a hip fracture or worse from oversedation.

I look forward to more updates, especially after the daughter hits the fan.

Once again, you rock!

DITTO

Specializes in LTC, assisted living, med-surg, psych.
I'm not too familiar with ALF regulations, but I would consider wasting them with another employee rather than giving them back to the daughter. I wouldn't trust her not to be slipping them to mom behind your back. Then what kind of creek would you be up? I know if a pt brings home meds, we have to send them to pharmacy in a tamper proof bag. The only way they can only get the narcs or other controlled meds back is with a doctor's order.

You make a very good point here, and I thank you!

In Oregon ALFs, residents may keep meds in their rooms and self-administer them as long as a) there is an MD order that says they are competent to do so, and b) the facility nurse agrees after having assessed the resident. :wink2:

Now, evidently all this was agreed to by the previous nurse, and maybe then it was appropriate (although I doubt it). Then, it was OK'd by the current NP for the Rozerem ONLY to be left at bedside---one pill at a time---for the resident to take when she is ready for sleep. HOWEVER, in this case my nursing judgment trumps "orders", and I am the final word on whether a resident is allowed to self-medicate.

I am going to try, one final time, to sit down with the daughter and explain in detail all the rules, regulations, and nursing assessments that went into my decision to "go over her head" as she puts it. Then I'm going to document my fanny off, and if she wants to take her mother elsewhere, that's up to her.........we are having NO trouble keeping the apartments filled, and even if we were, I'd take this one all the way up to headquarters. In the meantime, my administrator trusts my judgment and is backing me up, and I'm thinking this may very well die down after the daughter has had a chance to think it through.........after all, both of us want what's best for the resident, even if our viewpoints of what's best differ from each other!

Of course, all this could be a load of bull and the daughter IS diverting. She doesn't strike me as someone who would do that, but I don't know her all that well, and we all know that professional people are just as prone to human foibles as anyone else. I have to wonder about it anyway, since the resident is upright and ambulatory and awake much of the day........hmmmmmmm................:rolleyes:

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