Blue about Code Blue - pg.2 | allnurses

Blue about Code Blue - page 2

I am a new nurse working on the Oncology floor. The stages of cancer we treat vary from newly diagnosed to metastatic. Some of my patients have good prognoses while others have only weeks or possibly... Read More

  1. Visit  pookyp profile page
    Quote from Mulan
    This is a death defying society.

    Everyone is supposed to live forever and be in perfect health.
    This is what my teacher says.
  2. Visit  Susie2310 profile page
    Quote from Clovery
    One of my nursing instructors says it really depends on how you ask the patient... "Do you want to be resuscitated?" vs "Do you want to be allowed a natural death?" She stressed that CPR was meant for the 'healthy-dead' and wasn't intended to be used on the old, frail, and very sick.

    I'm a new grad and just experienced my first code last week so I've been reviewing my notes from school on this topic. The patient was revived. I didn't know him at all though. When I arrived all of the major tasks were already being performed but no one was recording, so I took that on. I did a pretty good job and the nursing supervisor used my notes to fill out the report.
    I disagree with your nursing instructor's question to the patient "Do you want to be resuscitated," versus "Do you want to be allowed a natural death?" I am going by your literal wording of your instructor's comments in my response here. Does your instructor explain the difference to the patient? As a nurse I understand the question. If you asked my family members I believe they would be confused. The question is not straightforward. People have a right to choose to receive CPR/ACLS if they wish, regardless of their age or medical condition. Your instructor has the right to his/her belief that CPR is meant for the 'healthy-dead' and wasn't intended to be used on the old, frail and very sick, but he/she does not have the right to impose his/her beliefs on other people (patients and family), who may have different values and beliefs, and who have a right to make their own choice.

    I am beginning to feel some people (people in general, not your instructor in particular) are seeing the old, whether sick or healthy, who choose life-sustaining measures, as a burden, and are subtly indicating to them that they should not choose life-sustaining measures. I find this reprehensible. Provide sufficient information regarding the choices available, respect the patient/family's choice, and carry out their wishes.
    Last edit by Susie2310 on May 5, '13
    sapphire18 likes this.
  3. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    As a full time rapid response RN I go to many codes, occasionaly am the one running tthe code. Your experince is typical. They are frusterating in the extream, rarely helpful, usually brutual and crule. Our society simply does not handel end of life isses very well. Add to that cowardly physicians and other staff who don't have the guts to be strait up and honest with the family and patient.
    It is VERY rare to have a sucessful code, meaning a patient leavers the hospital to have some semblance of a qualiety life. Occasionaly we get a cardiac arrest code on a young patient (<70) and we can get them back. Despite going to maybe 50 codes in the last 2 years I can't think of any patient over 70 who we got back to do more than die a slow lingering death in ICU. One of our aggresive residents even coded a 96 year old patient who died for no apperent reason. I put a stop to the code as soon as I arrived. On several occasions I have refused to code certain patients. On even more occasions we have run "show" or "slow" codes.
  4. Visit  chrisrn24 profile page
    My mother thought that DNR meant the person wouldn't be treated.

    There needs to be more education about what DNR means so people can make informed choices.
    NurseDirtyBird, KelRN215, Patchouli, and 1 other like this.
  5. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    Quote from chrisrn24
    My mother thought that DNR meant the person wouldn't be treated.

    There needs to be more education about what DNR means so people can make informed choices.
    *** Right. I often describe it to patients as "What do you want us to do after you die?" to make clear that care won't change while they are alive.
  6. Visit  dandk1997RN profile page
    Quote from chrisrn24
    My mother thought that DNR meant the person wouldn't be treated.

    There needs to be more education about what DNR means so people can make informed choices.
    Agreed. People just don't understand. I wish people would think about these things before they're in the hospital and scared. I asked an OLD 66 yr old (multiple cancers, bypasses, still smoking, falls, social issues, etc) woman if she had a health care proxy and explained it to her. She told me no but her boys know what she wants. I tried to explain that we need a name in writing and offer to get her the form, explaining the whole thing and that it is simple...and she refused. So she essentially told me her sons should be her hcps, but her lack of understanding (and refusal to be truly educated) is going to lead to us following our protocols because we've got nothing on paper. :-(. And this was just for HCP info- cant imagine trying to bring up MOLST.
  7. Visit  jadelpn profile page
    There does need to be much more education on what DNR means. What comfort care is. However, we are often not party to private conversations in families. Some patients are really clear on their desire to "have everything done". And although we may not agree, it is an absolute right.
    This is why it is so important to have these conversations with one's health care advocate/proxy. Someone who will be one's voice. Who will in fact do what you want, as opposed to what they or even any of us want.
    It is complicated, personal, and needs frank education most importantly at the begining of a terminal diagnosis. (and in fact when one fills out a health care proxy).
    Should be mandatory education for patients.
  8. Visit  Good Morning, Gil profile page
    In short OP, too often. That is hands down, the hardest part of my job in ICU (and will be for you in oncology, too). We educate, and educate some more, but at the end of the day, a 90 year old person on 3 pressors, septic shock d/t PNA secondary to stage IV lung, breast, prostrate (any cancer) is a full code if a POA deems they're a full code (a hypothetical here, not an actual patient). Just the way it is. So we continue with care, inserting lines, frequent labs, abx, etc.

    How I keep it in perspective? That patient in that bed still needs good care, and I'm there to provide it (as are the other nurses on the unit). Also, I make sure the physician schedules a family meeting and/or palliative consult to ensure the family understands what is happening. (Sometimes this leads to at least a DNR status, and sometimes terminal wean, comfort care; patient advocacy is so important). Is it easy? No, but I know I have done everything for that patient/family, so I feel good about my work at the end of the day. Eventually, the person will tire, and die (like what happened in your code). That code was a blessing (otherwise, patient could have lived longer, delirious, possibly sent to ICU, and having to be intubated, lines placed, pressors started, etc), prolonging life further.
    nrsang97 and Esme12 like this.
  9. Visit  anotherone profile page
    Have had some pts who in their history prior to being my ot have been coded and are still walkie talkies. All under 40 with a VERY short down time.

    Will there come a time here where payment dictates what is done?
  10. Visit  Esme12 profile page
    I agree that codes are violent acts. There is nothing to describe the brutality that occurs to the untrained, or trained, observer. I don't think people really understand what. DNR really means and if they do they don't really understand what a code means....the brutality of defibrillation and CPR...that distinct sound of cracking ribs... the trauma of intubation...that death bears little resemblance to what we see on TV

    I think that many people are ambiguous about their own feelings about death. They are uncomfortable talking about it and this includes physicians who's first oath is "Do no harm". Once as I was participating in the care of a patient with an inoperable brain tumor who came to my ICU in Status Epileptics....I heard the oncologist repeat over and over that the 48 yo patient , who had a limited DNR (no defib no CPR), was seizing due to hypoxia and needed to be intubated. Proclaimed success when the chemically paralyzed patient stop visually seizing....and she informed the family that they had been stabilized.

    To me that MD needs to be taken aside and given the what me that is giving false hope and is cruel and unusual punishment. No wonder they were hysterical and devastated when this patient died hours later when they herniated their brainstem.....while the oncologist was at home snug in their bed, leaving it up to the ICU nurses to help this family find some peace.

    I know there are worse things than death. I have seen them and cared for them. Sometimes I think people either love someone too much to let them go...or they are paying them back somehow for bad deeds. I believe in putting my pets down as an act of humanity because I love them enough to let them go. But the patients decision has nothing what so ever to do with what I want and what I believe. The facility where I had worked allowed the ICU nurses to talk with the families about DNR. They trusted us to have these discussions and then would come in to "really talk" to the families and write the orders. We talked about DNR and that it is not a do not treat.

    I think using terminology like "using a machine" to "help them breathe".....are using euphemisms for the real thing. How many times have heard a family flip out when they found out their loved one is on "life support" because no one told them!!! so you tell them what did they think the tube was...they state..the doctor told me it was "a temporary tube to help them breathe"....that their loved one "never wanted to be on life support".

    I think we need to recognize that sometimes medicine isn't perfect. I think we need to remember that in being human we are flawed. I think we need to remember it is not about how we feel the patients but that is it all about how the patient/family feels and respecting their wishes and decisions. To take these moments to learn and have these discussion with ourselves about how we feel and what would our decision would be for our family.

    Even After all my years being a nurse....for the only job I really ever had was being a nurse...I became a nurse when I was 18 years old.....I still had complete faith that my father would peacefully die in his sleep at home in his bed at 80 years old......not surrounded by machinery after coding in the middle of the night....even I had trouble removing my best friend from life support knowing full well he would never get better and never come home.

    It is ok to be's good to question....but when dealing with humanity remember it is messy and nothing is ever crystal clear. I am not saying codes get easier but they do become less traumatizing with experience. Take comfort that you are there to care for that patient in the best way you humanly can but that you are limited i the decision process. ((HUGS))
    calivianya, PMFB-RN, anotherone, and 1 other like this.
  11. Visit  dudette10 profile page
    There is a flip side to this. I get a little uncomfortable during my admission questions when a young, relatively healthy patient talks about not wanting to be on life support. I keep thinking,"Yes, you do, because you have a chance to make it back!" I explain that sometimes life support truly is temporary to allow the body to heal, and that the pt will have a chance to talk about it further when the residents come in for the H&P. what it comes down to is that the decision is not black or white. It should be based on the pt's chance of some sort of quality of life, however the patient defines that.
    1feistymama likes this.
  12. Visit  MomRN0913 profile page
    Because of exactly what you described above, I left ICU nursing and went I to hospice. I can't tell you how many futile codes we ran when the chance for a peaceful end of life was very disturbing to me.

    It is the decision of the patient. It bothers me when the prognosis and options are not described and explained well enough to these terminal patients. They need to be educated. It also bothers me when family keeps them alive for themselves. That's why I am a big advocate of at least an advanced directive. A very well explained advanced directive.
    anotherone and Good Morning, Gil like this.
  13. Visit  KelRN215 profile page
    Fortunately I have never had to code an end-of-life oncology patient. What struck me reading this thread is how common people are saying this is... I am a pediatric nurse and have worked oncology in some way or another my entire career. Reading this thread would almost make me think that people are more willing to let their children go than they are to let their elderly parents go. Virtually every oncology death I have experienced was peaceful. The child was either at home with hospice or in the hospital with comfort measures only. The child was usually on morphine and possibly versed or ketamine drips. Their hearts were strong so what typically happened in the end was brainstem herniation, they peacefully stopped breathing and cardiac arrest came seconds later. My very favorite patient died in the ICU on BiPAP- her parents had rescinded her DNR several times and it had finally been reinstated. She had finally gone home with hospice/round the clock nursing. One morning, she desatted and her mother decided it wasn't time and called 911. Once she got to the ICU, the team instructed them to call family in and once everyone arrived, the BiPAP was discontinued and she passed. I saw her only two or three hours before she died and knew that- but for the BiPAP- she was already gone. I have never had a pediatric oncology parent who wanted compressions or defibrillation... even the ones who wanted intubation did not want those things. Even the ones who held out and "wanted everything done" ended up agreeing to the DNR in time.

    In the case of my own parents- my mother and I have discussed this several times. My grandmother (her mother) suffered a devastating stroke at the age of 56. This was in the '70s and I don't think anyone in the family knew what to expect. She had gone to work as if it were any other day, complained of a bad headache to a co-worker and then fainted. Because she was otherwise healthy and relatively young, my grandfather wanted everything done. I don't think they knew at the time what everything entailed- she ended up with a trach (I think she was decannulated eventually because I don't remember her with a trach but I've seen the hospital records so I know she had one for a period of time), a G-tube, a VP Shunt. She never recovered and was in and out of nursing homes for the next 16 years until she finally passed. I was nearly 11 when she died and she never knew who I was. Everyone in my family knows that this is not what they want. When my grandfather died, he was doing what he did every Wednesday night for the majority of his adult life- playing Pitch with his buddies. He got sick, went to the hospital, refused all treatment and died 3 days later.

    This is precisely one of the reasons I couldn't work with adults. I could not fathom doing such horrible things to prevent someone from having a peaceful death.
    anotherone likes this.