Women's Right to Choose

[River&MountainRN]

I haven't seen this conversation come up on AllNurses, even after Scrubs Mag addressed the erosion of women's right to choose. I apologize if this is too much of a hot-button issue to open up for discussion, but I'm curious as to where folks on here stand when it comes to the increase in states passing restrictive abortion laws, in some cases nearly eliminating it altogether. If the mods are afraid, like I am (especially after seeing how some of the Facebook discussions devolved after Scrubs Mag posted their article there), that this can't remain a civil discussion, please feel free to take it down now. I just feel that this is an important discussion that needs to take place. After Missouri Rep. Barry Hovis spoke of the vast majority of rape being date rape and "consensual rape", Virginia State Sen. Steve Martin (R) stated "A pregnant woman is just a “host” that should not have the right to end her pregnancy", and VP Pence's comments about being "proud to be part of pro-life administration", I'm feeling increasingly disturbed about this country's lack of regard toward women.

[Scrunchkin78, ADN, BSN, MSN]

1 hour ago, Horseshoe said:

One can believe that the Bible is a work of fiction and still be a great nurse. There is no requirement that one must believe in the Bible in order to have the ability to respect their patients’ right to their religious beliefs and provide compassionate care. I know many nurses who are atheists, who think the entire concept of a God is absurd, yet do not inflict that belief on others or treat their religious partients any differently than their non religious patients.

Absolutely...but you don’t tell that individual in your care that you think their beliefs are stupid. You keep that thought to yourself and offer spiritual support. I don’t push my faith on anyone because it serves no purpose. If I can talk you into faith then you can be talked out of it by someone else. That is not true faith. My beliefs on the value of life are through the personal experience of having my son. My first prenatal visit was later than usual 10 weeks or so, and he was fully formed and moving. He kicked so much on the lady partsl ultrasound that the OB had a hard time getting his heart rate. He hasn’t stopped moving since. I was pro choice until that moment. Nothing to do with church or God...just the love of my unborn son.

[CamMc]

1 hour ago, Scrunchkin78 said:

Absolutely...but you don’t tell that individual in your care that you think their beliefs are stupid. You keep that thought to yourself and offer spiritual support. I don’t push my faith on anyone because it serves no purpose. If I can talk you into faith then you can be talked out of it by someone else. That is not true faith. My beliefs on the value of life are through the personal experience of having my son. My first prenatal visit was later than usual 10 weeks or so, and he was fully formed and moving. He kicked so much on the lady partsl ultrasound that the OB had a hard time getting his heart rate. He hasn’t stopped moving since. I was pro choice until that moment. Nothing to do with church or God...just the love of my unborn son.

Sorry, horseshoe dragged me back into this, I never said that your beliefs or anyone who believes in the bible is stupid, maybe fiction was taken as an insult. What I said is that you are trying to argue that the source someone posted was biased (even though NPR is one of the most unbiased public news sources in the US, despite being slightly left leaning) and then to counter argue you used a source that the very first thing displayed is a Bible verse, showing that it is definitely biased. I would never tell anyone that their beliefs are stupid, just as I would hope no one would tell me mine are stupid. I think there are definitely positive things that can be taken from the bible and other religious texts. I find other religions fascinating, but we do not live in a theocracy and therefore trying to use a religious text as proof of why something should or should not be done, is biased and not an argument I care to have. I'm glad you had a positive experience with your son and with your God, but those are not things that everyone experiences.

[Scrunchkin78, ADN, BSN, MSN]

1 hour ago, CamMc said:

Sorry, horseshoe dragged me back into this, I never said that your beliefs or anyone who believes in the bible is stupid, maybe fiction was taken as an insult. What I said is that you are trying to argue that the source someone posted was biased (even though NPR is one of the most unbiased public news sources in the US, despite being slightly left leaning) and then to counter argue you used a source that the very first thing displayed is a Bible verse, showing that it is definitely biased. I would never tell anyone that their beliefs are stupid, just as I would hope no one would tell me mine are stupid. I think there are definitely positive things that can be taken from the bible and other religious texts. I find other religions fascinating, but we do not live in a theocracy and therefore trying to use a religious text as proof of why something should or should not be done, is biased and not an argument I care to have. I'm glad you had a positive experience with your son and with your God, but those are not things that everyone experiences.

Thank you for clarifying because, yes, I did find that insulting. I am glad that wasn’t the intent. I will say It’s certainly your choice to believe so and I don’t judge about a person’s decisions on faith. Our laws are based on Judeo-Christian beliefs but the founders understood that church and state should be separate. I personally wouldn’t want to be subject to sharia law. My pregnancy with my son was complicated and ended in emergent c-section...I am blessed that we are both living. That experience indelibly made its mark on me and value for life.

[LilPeanut, MSN, RN, NP]

15 hours ago, Scrunchkin78 said:

Thank you for clarifying because, yes, I did find that insulting. I am glad that wasn’t the intent. I will say It’s certainly your choice to believe so and I don’t judge about a person’s decisions on faith. Our laws are based on Judeo-Christian beliefs but the founders understood that church and state should be separate. I personally wouldn’t want to be subject to sharia law. My pregnancy with my son was complicated and ended in emergent c-section...I am blessed that we are both living. That experience indelibly made its mark on me and value for life.

Our laws are not based on judeochristian beliefs. They are based on moral and ethical principles that happen to coincidence with judeochristian beliefs.

[Jesusforever, BSN]

I believe abortion is wrong, no matter what the circumstances. The Bible says that children are a gift from the Lord. To have an abortion is to murder a human being. The fact that there are even discussions on late term abortions is sickening to me. There are many couples looking to adopt. You were once a “clump of cells” inside your mother but you are not the same as her or just a part of her. You are a totally different human being that grew inside you mom. America does not have a low regard for the value of women, it has a low regard for the value of babies.

[Jesusforever, BSN]

I believe abortion is wrong, no matter what the circumstances. The Bible says that children are a gift from the Lord. To have an abortion is to murder a human being. The fact that there are even discussions on late term abortions is sickening to me. There are many couples looking to adopt. You were once a “clump of cells” inside your mother but you are not the same as her or just a part of her. You are a totally different human being that grew inside you mom. America does not have a low regard for the value of women, it has a low regard for the value of babies.

I pray that you take the time to watch this video. God bless.

[NurseBlaq]

15 minutes ago, Jesusforever said:

I believe abortion is wrong, no matter what the circumstances. The Bible says that children are a gift from the Lord. To have an abortion is to murder a human being. The fact that there are even discussions on late term abortions is sickening to me. There are many couples looking to adopt. You were once a “clump of cells” inside your mother but you are not the same as her or just a part of her. You are a totally different human being that grew inside you mom. America does not have a low regard for the value of women, it has a low regard for the value of babies.

I pray that you take the time to watch this video. God bless.

Child bearing women are not obligated to birth babies for barren women. You seem to put woman against woman in your stance and your argument is severely flawed. You also have a religious based point of view which is irrelevant because not everyone subscribes to your religion. Some of you Christian folk belittle Muslims but when it comes to women's bodies many of you are no different than Muslim men and Sharia Law. Literally, no difference! Today it's abortion, next it'll be female genital mutilation.

You don't believe in abortion no matter what the circumstances? So a woman who's facing death should die as long as a baby is born, who may also not make it? A 12 yr old child who's raped should be forced to birth a baby and continue to be traumatized for having her innocence taken? But none of that matters because some random couple who will have to jump through hoops will want to adopt that child never mind the millions of unadopted children ready for a home now, huh? Your logic has more holes than swiss cheese.

How about letting women decide what's best for their own bodies, health, mental and emotional well being, and their lives and you respect it? You don't have to like it but it is women's right to determine what's best for us. I have never, and most likely will never, get an abortion but that's what I choose for ME. I still believe in not subscribing my personal choices onto other women. Don't be the Uterus Gestapo!

[Scrunchkin78, ADN, BSN, MSN]

21 minutes ago, LilPeanut said:

Our laws are not based on judeochristian beliefs. They are based on moral and ethical principles that happen to coincidence with judeochristian beliefs.

Saying that our laws were founded on Judeo-Christian morality, which is correct, is not the same as saying that our laws are produced straight from the Bible, which they are not. Our government, and many others in Western Civilization, are founded on a combination of Greek reasoning, Roman governmental structure, and Judeo-Christian morality. In the absence of society and a moral framework, humans are not naturally disposed to being “good.” So our basic concepts of right and wrong are from Judeo-Christian morality and our ability to reason out the nature of our conduct and subsequent effects of others is Aristotelian. The ability to know that stealing and killing are bad does not occur in a vacuum.

”...all men were endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights...”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4476139/#!po=0.581395

[BSNbound21, BSN, RN]

On 5/23/2019 at 2:41 PM, Scrunchkin78 said:

Asking someone to back up a statement they used to assert that "Jesus is okay with abortion" has nothing to do with shaming or being devoid of facts. It is actually asking for a factual basis for the comment (which is utterly ridiculous). BTW, I don't need the bible to tell me that human life is valuable. If you need a book to grasp that basic concept then you are in the wrong profession.

That user absolutely did not ask anybody to prove that Jesus is okay with abortion. You just took it that way. You miss my point, however, in that when you use religion to back up your argument, it falls on deaf ears if the person you are talking to does not practice your religion. You assume that we all care what the Bible says.

Also, I think it's amusing that you just slammed every nurse on this site who is pro-choice. Apparently we are in the wrong profession, folks, because we don't care about human life.

This, for me, is where the conversation ends- with friends, family members, and especially internet strangers. You can argue your point until you're blue in the face (as can I) but we will not ever get anywhere.

[BSNbound21, BSN, RN]

Look folks, the topic of abortion is divisive. Always. It's one of those areas that we are not all going to agree on, ever. The main issues that divide us the most are:

1) Is abortion "murder"? Some say yes, you are extinguishing a life. Others say no, that life is not a life without the support of another. This is just one potential argument under this topic- there are many others. Some argue that all life is "life" so if you kill spiders, you are still a murderer killing for selfish motivations (not wanting to be bitten).

2) Is abortion "wrong"? Some say yes, because abortion is murder. Others say no, because they don't view abortion as murder, and therefore it is justified if a woman is not prepared to commit to the responsibility of raising a human.

It is way more complicated than this, obviously, because you have differences in opinion between a seven-week abortion and 22-week abortion.

3) There are differences in opinion regarding responsibility on the mother's part. Some say "don't put yourself in the position to get pregnant, and if you do, deal with it." Others say "accidents happen, even responsible women get pregnant on birth control." Still others say "practice abstinence- only have sex in a monogamous committed relationship," to which some would reply "complete avoidance of sex for life unless you're married? That's nuts and also very unfair to women."

I could go on. My point is that this issue is very divisive. I have personally lost friends over it, and these new laws are not helping a country that is already more divided than it's ever been. Regardless of which camp you are in, try to remember that you aren't going to change somebody's opinion by ranting, swearing, belittling, etc. I have to remind myself of this as well. All these "oh and BTW, (you are moral trash)" comments will get you nowhere.

[NightNerd, MSN, RN]

7 hours ago, Jesusforever said:

I believe abortion is wrong, no matter what the circumstances. The Bible says that children are a gift from the Lord. To have an abortion is to murder a human being. The fact that there are even discussions on late term abortions is sickening to me. There are many couples looking to adopt. You were once a “clump of cells” inside your mother but you are not the same as her or just a part of her. You are a totally different human being that grew inside you mom. America does not have a low regard for the value of women, it has a low regard for the value of babies.

As a former fetus, I don't think I'd have much to say on the subject if my mom had had an abortion, because I physically couldn't talk, or think, or remember the incident, or BREATHE, or anything else that living people do. That's not to say I would have been innocent and defenseless, but rather that at that point it certainly should have been her choice, because I literally had no stake in the matter! This is totally different from taking a life that is already established. I personally don't believe a fetus is a life until it can survive outside of the womb, but even if it was, abortion would not be an act of murder but of self-defense. Unless someone is prepared to be pregnant for the better part of a year and then either raise a baby or give it away, they don't have to! There are willing surrogate mothers who can incubate a child for those who need a fresh new infant to start a family. (Preparing for downvotes.)

[Scrunchkin78, ADN, BSN, MSN]

4 hours ago, BSNbound21 said:

That user absolutely did not ask anybody to prove that Jesus is okay with abortion. You just took it that way. You miss my point, however, in that when you use religion to back up your argument, it falls on deaf ears if the person you are talking to does not practice your religion. You assume that we all care what the Bible says.

Also, I think it's amusing that you just slammed every nurse on this site who is pro-choice. Apparently we are in the wrong profession, folks, because we don't care about human life.

This, for me, is where the conversation ends- with friends, family members, and especially internet strangers. You can argue your point until you're blue in the face (as can I) but we will not ever get anywhere.

Obviously, you didn't read the ORIGINAL post I was responding to. That post was saying that abortion is condoned in the bible and by Jesus. You don't need a doctorate in theology to know that is ludicrous. I was asking for proof of such a statement.

What I find amusing is your immediate attempt to characterize my response as basing an argument on religion. I have not done so at any point because I understand how futile it is. Not to mention that Christianity is not the only religion that frowns on abortion, so quoting the bible as a reference source actually limits available resources.

The statement that if a book is required to determine the value of life... yeah that is pretty much common sense. If you took offense to that statement then I am categorizing it as a "you" issue and not a "me" issue. I didn't invite your response, so obviously you felt some need to engage in conversation which makes me wonder why you even bothered saying "this is where the conversation ends"... seems like it is the beginning.