Women's Right to Choose

Nurses General Nursing

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I haven't seen this conversation come up on AllNurses, even after Scrubs Mag addressed the erosion of women's right to choose. I apologize if this is too much of a hot-button issue to open up for discussion, but I'm curious as to where folks on here stand when it comes to the increase in states passing restrictive abortion laws, in some cases nearly eliminating it altogether. If the mods are afraid, like I am (especially after seeing how some of the Facebook discussions devolved after Scrubs Mag posted their article there), that this can't remain a civil discussion, please feel free to take it down now. I just feel that this is an important discussion that needs to take place. After Missouri Rep. Barry Hovis spoke of the vast majority of rape being date rape and "consensual rape", Virginia State Sen. Steve Martin (R) stated "A pregnant woman is just a “host” that should not have the right to end her pregnancy", and VP Pence's comments about being "proud to be part of pro-life administration", I'm feeling increasingly disturbed about this country's lack of regard toward women.

Funny how people here are quick to say that fetuses are just a clump of cells, therefore it’s not really a living being, but at the same time are happy to say that finding any type of bacteria in other planets would be considered undeniable proof of life. Also, these same people that use abortions as birth control value any type of life, except the lives of unborn children. Want to get an abortion? Do so without taxpayer’s money.

2 Votes
On 5/19/2019 at 10:08 PM, Ruby Vee said:

My opinion on the topic is pretty simple. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. You do NOT get to make that choice for someone else. And if you don't have a uterus and therefore cannot be faced with the decision, please shut up about how horrible you believe it is to end a pregnancy. You don't get to choose because you aren't pregnant. Or likely to become so.

When I was first sexually active, way back in the dinosaur days before Roe v. Wade, there was a saying going around that "If men could become pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."

If men don't believe in abortion, perhaps they should refrain from having sex with women with whom they don't wish to reproduce, use condoms and take responsibility for the offspring produced from the rare condom failure.

Pay for your abortions, that’s that. No more tax money to pay for this ***. Also, your contribution to health insurance would never be enough for an abortion. My tax money shouldn’t have to go towards something you think is ok.

3 Votes
On 5/20/2019 at 11:04 AM, JadedCPN said:

Of course everyone is allowed to have an opinion, and I respect yours even if I don’t agree with it.

But your opinion (or anyone else’s) should not trump my opinion when the body in question is mine. And the only male opinion that should even be slightly considered is that of my husband. And his opinion still wouldn’t trump mine since it is my body. Period.

Then use your own money, that will end this problem real fast.

2 Votes
Specializes in NICU/Neonatal transport.
On 5/25/2019 at 5:00 PM, DancRN said:

Funny how people here are quick to say that fetuses are just a clump of cells, therefore it’s not really a living being, but at the same time are happy to say that finding any type of bacteria in other planets would be considered undeniable proof of life. Also, these same people that use abortions as birth control value any type of life, except the lives of unborn children. Want to get an abortion? Do so without taxpayer’s money.

Taxpayer money is not used for abortions.

I will repeat this for those in the back who are slow: outlawing abortions does not decrease rates of abortions, it only increases the risk the woman will die from it.

Social programs to care for children and their mothers is what will decrease abortions.

If your goal is to decrease the number of abortions, this is not the way to do it, it just increases the likelihood that a woman will die too. How prolife is that?

10 Votes
Specializes in NICU/Neonatal transport.
7 hours ago, Scrunchkin78 said:

Saying that our laws were founded on Judeo-Christian morality, which is correct, is not the same as saying that our laws are produced straight from the Bible, which they are not. Our government, and many others in Western Civilization, are founded on a combination of Greek reasoning, Roman governmental structure, and Judeo-Christian morality. In the absence of society and a moral framework, humans are not naturally disposed to being “good.” So our basic concepts of right and wrong are from Judeo-Christian morality and our ability to reason out the nature of our conduct and subsequent effects of others is Aristotelian. The ability to know that stealing and killing are bad does not occur in a vacuum.

”...all men were endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights...”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4476139/#!po=0.581395

I disagree, because there are many situations that have shown that humans have the ability to understand that they should not do to you and your what they would not want done to themselves and theirs. We are prone to problems, but overall, humans have evolved to live and work in groups and they invented religion to help codify moral and ethical principles that were in place already.

3 Votes
Specializes in Critical Care.
On 5/25/2019 at 5:00 PM, DancRN said:

Funny how people here are quick to say that fetuses are just a clump of cells, therefore it’s not really a living being, but at the same time are happy to say that finding any type of bacteria in other planets would be considered undeniable proof of life. Also, these same people that use abortions as birth control value any type of life, except the lives of unborn children. Want to get an abortion? Do so without taxpayer’s money.

So do you believe bacteria should be protected? Are you opposed to the use of antibiotics? Hand washing? Laundering clothing?

And no tax money goes to fund abortions.

9 Votes
2 minutes ago, LilPeanut said:

I disagree, because there are many situations that have shown that humans have the ability to understand that they should not do to you and your what they would not want done to themselves and theirs.

This specific rationale comes from Judaism. Judaism has been around for more than 3000 years. We have lived in a society that is dominated by this religion since before western Europe was widely populated. If a person has never lived in a total vacuum outside of the influence of this society, how can you be so sure of their morality? Look at the tribal peoples... they do not share our morality. I'm not excusing religion either - too many wars have been fought over it. I'm saying it is a combination of influences and one of those is the Judeo-Christian ethic. Just look at the widespread celebration of Christmas... a religious holiday (Pagan to start with) that has been adapted into a cultural celebration over time. What makes us different is our ability to reason and question .... perform scientific tests... which we have adapted from our Greek forebears.

1 Votes
Specializes in NICU/Neonatal transport.
2 minutes ago, Scrunchkin78 said:

This specific rationale comes from Judaism. Judaism has been around for more than 3000 years. We have lived in a society that is dominated by this religion since before western Europe was widely populated. If a person has never lived in a total vacuum outside of the influence of this society, how can you be so sure of their morality? Look at the tribal peoples... they do not share our morality. I'm not excusing religion either - too many wars have been fought over it. I'm saying it is a combination of influences and one of those is the Judeo-Christian ethic. Just look at the widespread celebration of Christmas... a religious holiday (Pagan to start with) that has been adapted into a cultural celebration over time. What makes us different is our ability to reason and question .... perform scientific tests... which we have adapted from our Greek forebears.

Again above: if I don't want you to do it to me and mine, I shouldn't do it to you and yours.

Religion was made to enforce existing mores, not the basis for them.

5 Votes
On 5/25/2019 at 5:25 PM, MunoRN said:

So do you believe bacteria should be protected? Are you opposed to the use of antibiotics? Hand washing? Laundering clothing?

And no tax money goes to fund abortions.

That's a bit of a strawman argument. Bacteria does not grow into a sentient being whereas a blastocyte develops into a human.

And yes, some bacteria should be protected, otherwise, you get yeast infections, C-diff, and acne.

1 Votes
Just now, LilPeanut said:

Again above: if I don't want you to do it to me and mine, I shouldn't do it to you and yours.

Religion was made to enforce existing mores, not the basis for them.

How do you know what mores existed over 3000 years ago? Is the Golden Rule a basic human construct in our DNA? Just look at the Sentinelese people, who are completely separated from any known religion... if you get close to their island they shoot you dead with arrows and hang your body on the beach. Native American tribes warred with each other and took slaves and trophy's as a matter of honor. Similar findings are documented across many tribal peoples. The natural state of being human is violence, we are nurtured into our morality. The Judeo-Christian culture has been around so long and is so prevalent that it has become embedded.

1 Votes
Specializes in NICU/Neonatal transport.
17 minutes ago, Scrunchkin78 said:

How do you know what mores existed over 3000 years ago? Is the Golden Rule a basic human construct in our DNA? Just look at the Sentinelese people, who are completely separated from any known religion... if you get close to their island they shoot you dead with arrows and hang your body on the beach. Native American tribes warred with each other and took slaves and trophy's as a matter of honor. Similar findings are documented across many tribal peoples. The natural state of being human is violence, we are nurtured into our morality. The Judeo-Christian culture has been around so long and is so prevalent that it has become embedded.

The Sentinelese are protecting their land from invaders. They will kill anyone who tries to come to their island uninvited. That is not the same as those who kill for other reasons, and christians have killed as well.

The other phenomenon you are talking about comes with ingroup/outgroup dynamics. Those who are not ingroup are not viewed the same (neither are they in religious texts)

I know this because humans made it to the point where they could invent religion. What you are ascribing to judeochristian is just human that has been coopted. Humans have empathy and reason.

Religion provides a way to explain things we don't understand and that scare us - where do we go when we die, why do bad things happen to good people and vice versa, why does the sun go away at night, why do certain foods get us sick, why does the weather change, as well as providing a magical being that can watch at all times, like santa with children. Honestly, santa is just a version of a god, just tailored for small children.

There are lots of societies that were very developed in the west that never were exposed to judeochristian beliefs, as well as the east. The Olmecs and Incas and Mayans and Aztecs, the vikings, japan/china, Iroquois, I can go on listing civilizations that had no contact with judeochristian people.

4 Votes
1 hour ago, LilPeanut said:

The Sentinelese are protecting their land from invaders. They will kill anyone who tries to come to their island uninvited. That is not the same as those who kill for other reasons, and christians have killed as well.

The other phenomenon you are talking about comes with ingroup/outgroup dynamics. Those who are not ingroup are not viewed the same (neither are they in religious texts)

I know this because humans made it to the point where they could invent religion. What you are ascribing to judeochristian is just human that has been coopted. Humans have empathy and reason.

Religion provides a way to explain things we don't understand and that scare us - where do we go when we die, why do bad things happen to good people and vice versa, why does the sun go away at night, why do certain foods get us sick, why does the weather change, as well as providing a magical being that can watch at all times, like santa with children. Honestly, santa is just a version of a god, just tailored for small children.

There are lots of societies that were very developed in the west that never were exposed to judeochristian beliefs, as well as the east. The Olmecs and Incas and Mayans and Aztecs, the vikings, japan/china, Iroquois, I can go on listing civilizations that had no contact with judeochristian people.

I said that religions have generated wars...many of them. But you are confusing religious liturgy with Judeo-Christian morality. They are not the same because Jews have one set of beliefs that vary from Roman Catholics which varies from Protestants.

The Ingroup/outgroup dynamic proves my point. Killing your rival clan is not apart of JC morality. The Mayans and Olmecs even performed human sacrifices....definitely not JC approved.

1 Votes
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