I'm VERY against abortion! I can't imagine supporting some through one, not saying that I would be mean, or anything like that, but I seriously couldn't act like I thought it was "OK" to do it just because they are too selfish to be parent's and would rather kill a baby than give him/her to someone who would give anything to have a baby. [Please don't reply with all the "medical reasons" to have an abortion! I know you have rights under the law to choose to do what you want with your body. I'm simply saying that FOR ME assisting in an abortion would be the same (again) FOR ME as standing next to someone with a gun in their hand about to shoot another person then saying "Oh wait, you forgot to take off the safety!"] I have been intersted in the whole process of pregnancy since I was pretty young (around 14 or so) and for quite a while even wanted to become an OB but decided that having a family wouldn't work for me if I chose to follow that career, and thought being a L&D nurse would be a perfect fit for me. I had never even thought of the possiblity of having to participate in an abortion until here reciently. (A comment some one made in passing when I told them I was going into nursing school) I will be starting my prereqs for nursing school on the 23, so I know I may find another area of nursing that I would be happy in once I start clinicals, but I really want to be a L&D nurse. Will abortions be "required" for me to work in L&D??? TIA!
Specializes in Happily semi-retired; excited for the whole whammy.
1st of all, this became a "heated" topic, open to debate and strong feelings when the OP said
OP-I simply wouldn't want you as my nurse, before, during or after my labor/abortion/csection/evaluation/tocolysis, etc. I'm not sure I would be able to view you in any type of positive light after that post. Realize that this is my opinion, which just as you are, I am entitled to.
A simple "I'm morally opposed to participating in an abortion" would have sufficed, and hopefully will in the future. There's no need to refer to statistically about half your patient base as selfish 'killers'--some 3 or 4 or 10 times over. It's disrespectful to say the least. Keep in mind also before you express this sentiment that many of your coworkers will have had abortions, and most have seen some horrific cases where abortion was necessary for varying reasons.
I understand you have strong opinions, as many of us do (I've met 3 people in my life who just shrugged when I've asked about their feelings regarding abortion--most people IME are very passionate-even those on the fence). My qualm is your brash judgement as those who have chosen abortion as selfish.
I just hope that if you do go into L&D, you can try to be a little less judgemental (saying that someone is selfish before even knowing their name, let alone their circumstances is judgemental. Let's call it like it is). I also hope that you do refrain from sharing your very charged views with your patients--be it before or after their procedure--as it is very inapproriate to give your opinions on such matters.
I agree that the OP was inflammatory. IMHO, you really can't go around making such statements and continue to claim that you're not being judgmental, but for whatever reason, some don't see it that way.
I'm actually going through an abortion right now (medical, not surgical, as I'm obviously not typing this from an OR bed ), so I will admit that my feelings on this are a bit....fresh. In my fathers eyes (and some of yours), me halting the development and expelling a 3week (5wk lmp) embryo via medication is tantamount to shooting my living 3rd grader in the head in cold blood.
Surgical was all that was available when I was a kid, and at later times - we couldn't confirm without a doctor's visit after the first missed period.
I hope this goes smoothly for you, Kell. I certainly see the difference between third graders and blastocysts.
Specializes in L&D, peds NN, and recently outpatient..
A few posts back someone pointed out the fact that we all have bias in our professions. I can give you the opposite of the abortion issue.
I know a couple who are having their 11th child. Dad works all the time, mom stays home and "homeschools". Considering the mom's lack of social skills I wonder what type of schooling they are getting. These kids are often hungry, don't receive regular medical care. One of the older kids almost died becuase her appendix ruptured and they didn't take her to the hospital until much later. So baby # 11 is on the way. I have an issue with then having so many children and not being about to provide for the ones they already have. They said they will "keep having children as long as the lord blesses them." Am I judging? Yes.
Specializes in Happily semi-retired; excited for the whole whammy.
A few posts back someone pointed out the fact that we all have bias in our professions. I can give you the opposite of the abortion issue.
I know a couple who are having their 11th child. Dad works all the time, mom stays home and "homeschools". Considering the mom's lack of social skills I wonder what type of schooling they are getting. These kids are often hungry, don't receive regular medical care. One of the older kids almost died becuase her appendix ruptured and they didn't take her to the hospital until much later. So baby # 11 is on the way. I have an issue with then having so many children and not being about to provide for the ones they already have. They said they will "keep having children as long as the lord blesses them." Am I judging? Yes.
We all do in some form or another. JMO
I agree with you that we all judge one another in one form or another. I know I certainly do. However, I don't deny it to myself, nor do I refer to clients (I don't work with patients) who do things with which I do not agree as selfish or imply that it is my place to behave as though I believe what they do is either okay or not okay. I believe that these statements are what have brought a bit of a hostile tone to some of the responses to the OP.
1st of all, this became a "heated" topic, open to debate and strong feelings when the OP said
OP-I simply wouldn't want you as my nurse, before, during or after my labor/abortion/csection/evaluation/tocolysis, etc. I'm not sure I would be able to view you in any type of positive light after that post. Realize that this is my opinion, which just as you are, I am entitled to.
A simple "I'm morally opposed to participating in an abortion" would have sufficed, and hopefully will in the future. There's no need to refer to statistically about half your patient base as selfish 'killers'--some 3 or 4 or 10 times over. It's disrespectful to say the least. Keep in mind also before you express this sentiment that many of your coworkers will have had abortions, and most have seen some horrific cases where abortion was necessary for varying reasons.
I understand you have strong opinions, as many of us do (I've met 3 people in my life who just shrugged when I've asked about their feelings regarding abortion--most people IME are very passionate-even those on the fence). My qualm is your brash judgement as those who have chosen abortion as selfish.
I just hope that if you do go into L&D, you can try to be a little less judgemental (saying that someone is selfish before even knowing their name, let alone their circumstances is judgemental. Let's call it like it is). I also hope that you do refrain from sharing your very charged views with your patients--be it before or after their procedure--as it is very inapproriate to give your opinions on such matters.
I'm actually going through an abortion right now (medical, not surgical, as I'm obviously not typing this from an OR bed ), so I will admit that my feelings on this are a bit....fresh. In my fathers eyes (and some of yours), me halting the development and expelling a 3week (5wk lmp) embryo via medication is tantamount to shooting my living 3rd grader in the head in cold blood.
I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to change mine. That's all been established.
The reasons behind having an abortion DO fall into two categories. One is either for some medical reason, such as with an emergency situation. The other is for selfish reasons, such as getting pregnant at an inopportune time or not wanting children. That truely is fact. Reasons for an abortion don't normally fall into anyother categorie. I have friends that have had reasons that fall into both and they ALL agonize over the decision they've made. What would that child have become in life?
Yes, this is a HOT topic, but we all have our opinions and the facts are facts and not judgemental. The fact that the OP is concerned about having to help with the actual process of an abortion is what this thread was originally about. I do find it a shame that such bold comments have come from nurses about her needing to think of a different field. It is totally possible for a pro-lifer to work in L&D and not have to help with abortions. She is not referring to taking care of a pt after the fact. She has also stated that she doesn't have a problem with taking care of pts after the fact. I aslo find it hard to believe that those that have stated the OP should't be in nursing, don't have any strong beliefs or values of their own that others could interpret the way the OP's beliefs have been interpretted. It is this concern that the OP has that WILL make her a GREAT nurse someday. She doesn't what to jepordize pt care because of her beliefs.
Would this thread have become so heated if it wasn't about abortion? What if the original topic was concern with helping with (or administering) blood transfusions, would it have become so heated?
Specializes in Happily semi-retired; excited for the whole whammy.
The reasons behind having an abortion DO fall into two categories. One is either for some medical reason, such as with an emergency situation. The other is for selfish reasons, such as getting pregnant at an inopportune time or not wanting children. That truely is fact. Reasons for an abortion don't normally fall into anyother categorie. I have friends that have had reasons that fall into both and they ALL agonize over the decision they've made. What would that child have become in life?
Yes, this is a HOT topic, but we all have our opinions and the facts are facts and not judgemental. The fact that the OP is concerned about having to help with the actual process of an abortion is what this thread was originally about. I do find it a shame that such bold comments have come from nurses about her needing to think of a different field. It is totally possible for a pro-lifer to work in L&D and not have to help with abortions. She is not referring to taking care of a pt after the fact. She has also stated that she doesn't have a problem with taking care of pts after the fact. I aslo find it hard to believe that those that have stated the OP should't be in nursing, don't have any strong beliefs or values of their own that others could interpret the way the OP's beliefs have been interpretted. It is this concern that the OP has that WILL make her a GREAT nurse someday. She doesn't what to jepordize pt care because of her beliefs.
Would this thread have become so heated if it wasn't about abortion? What if the original topic was concern with helping with (or administering) blood transfusions, would it have become so heated?
No, of course it wouldn't have become so heated if it had been about blood transfusions. What does that matter, though? Does the fact that a topic elicits strong feelings make it less worthy of discussion than a more routine topic?
If, as you say, facts are fact, then here's a fact that should be acknowledged; calling someone selfish is passing judgment on them, plain and simple.
but I seriously couldn't act like I thought it was "OK" to do it just because they are too selfish
ok the above it part of a quote from the posters origninal posting. now lets pretend that we are discussing parents right to refuse treatment for their child of any age lets say they are jehovas witness and do not recive blood transfusions. Or even a single mother refusing life saving treatment for herself and if she dies it would leave the child or children parentless. Even if you take abortion out of the picture this is still a loaded statement. Granted the poster is not a nurse yet. Not that she shouldn't be in the future. But havne't all of us during college and most importantly during nursing school learn that we have to treat everyone fairly reguardless of our opinions. She too will learn this and in turn change her practice. Every nurse can th ink the same thoughts as this student nurse (or soon to be good luck starting by the way) we just cann't verbalize them or act on our personal views.
No, of course it wouldn't have become so heated if it had been about blood transfusions. What does that matter, though? Does the fact that a topic elicits strong feelings make it less worthy of discussion than a more routine topic?
If, as you say, facts are fact, then here's a fact that should be acknowledged; calling someone selfish is passing judgment on them, plain and simple.
My point being that the OP concern was helping with the procedure. She simply wanted to know if she could work in L&D and not take part in the procedure. Now if that procedure was a blood transfusion and the rest of the post remained the same, would people be passing as much judgement on her because of her beliefs on bloood transfusions? I certainly am not saying that the topic is less worthy of discussion, but rather that it got a little off topic. I don't believe that there was anything in her post that should elicit people telling her not to go into nursing or that they would not want her as a nurse. To be honest with you, it is the people saying these such things that are passing the most judgement. They are also just seeing the word "abortion" and going into "debate mode."
Specializes in Happily semi-retired; excited for the whole whammy.
My point being that the OP concern was helping with the procedure. She simply wanted to know if she could work in L&D and not take part in the procedure. Now if that procedure was a blood transfusion and the rest of the post remained the same, would people be passing as much judgement on her because of her beliefs on bloood transfusions? I certainly am not saying that the topic is less worthy of discussion, but rather that it got a little off topic. I don't believe that there was anything in her post that should elicit people telling her not to go into nursing or that they would not want her as a nurse. To be honest with you, it is the people saying these such things that are passing the most judgement. They are also just seeing the word "abortion" and going into "debate mode."
Since I'm not one of the people that who implied she doesn't belong in nursing, I don't have a response to why some have done so. I don't think you can fairly compare this topic with blood transfusions, though, because I've never heard language such as "selfish" used in a discussion about them. Of course it wouldn't draw the same debate.
Since I'm not one of the people that who implied she doesn't belong in nursing, I don't have a response to why some have done so. I don't think you can fairly compare this topic with blood transfusions, though, because I've never heard language such as "selfish" used in a discussion about them. Of course it wouldn't draw the same debate.
I have heard discussion regarding JW parents who withhold blood from their children described as a selfish act. So, I think it relates.
Every person judges . . . . people are judging the op, the op is judging folks who have abortions, I'm judging all the posts, etc.
Specializes in Happily semi-retired; excited for the whole whammy.
I have heard discussion regarding JW parents who withhold blood from their children described as a selfish act. So, I think it relates.
Every person judges . . . . people are judging the op, the op is judging folks who have abortions, I'm judging all the posts, etc.
steph
Yes, you've just agreed with our point about the OP being judgmental. You can't use the term "selfish" to refer to the actions of others and claim that you're not passing judgment. The fact that we all judge in certain situations doesn't make it appropriate for a nurse to refer to a patient in those terms.
Since I'm not one of the people that who implied she doesn't belong in nursing, I don't have a response to why some have done so. I don't think you can fairly compare this topic with blood transfusions, though, because I've never heard language such as "selfish" used in a discussion about them. Of course it wouldn't draw the same debate.
I said blood transfusion because that's what came to mind. I wasn't actally comparing the two, but rather comparing the respond provoked by each. You can plug in what ever procedure one can think. And, yes you're right, it WOULDN'T have the same response......... that was my point! This thread has gone so far off its original topic because of those that simply see the word 'abortion', go into 'debate mode', and start picking the OP apart! The thread wasn't started to debate the subject.
I'm sorry if you took my post to include you with those that stated (yes, they actually stated it) the OP doesn't belong in nursing. Perhaps I should have included quotes from the posts that I was referring to. I was simply expressing my disgust that something of the sort would have even been stated.
), so I will admit that my feelings on this are a bit....fresh. In my fathers eyes (and some of yours), me halting the development and expelling a 3week (5wk lmp) embryo via medication is tantamount to shooting my living 3rd grader in the head in cold blood. 
LydiaNN
2,756 Posts
I agree that the OP was inflammatory. IMHO, you really can't go around making such statements and continue to claim that you're not being judgmental, but for whatever reason, some don't see it that way.