Will I HAVE TO particpate in abortions if I become a L&D nurse????

rn/writer, RN · Aug 5, 2007

I think it is a good idea for people to suggest to this person to strongly consider her future. Someone with this strong of a value about a topic is likely to have a equally strong opionion about other things. Nursing school is long, hard, and expensive to only find out you cannot provide care to patients with different morals. In all fields of nursing that there will be something you don't like about certain patients. I have had convicted child-molesters and murderers as patients (the worse of the worse, IMO). I hated every second of it but I COULD participate in there care, and I COULD treat them with the same respect as I would any one else. Same with my fellow co-workers. My point is- Being a nurse will require you to provide care to people with many different values. It is one thing to hate taking care of certain patients but it is another to say you are unable to. When it comes down to it, you are obligated to take care of your patients. What if you had a L&D patient that you found out 1/2 way thru your shift that they have had an abortion in the past. Would you still keep taking care of this patient?
Michelle

The OP was not talking about patient care at all. She was talking about participating in a procedure, plain and simple. She never said anything about not being able to take care of a specific kind of patient based on their values or morals. She said she wouldn't want to take part in abortions. To expand this to mean that she is judging people--and then to judge her for doing so--is neither productive nor correct.

BTW, there is nothing inherently wrong with having strong opinions.

mugwump · Aug 5, 2007

I am not speaking for anyone here, but there are many things that we do. (not nessiccarily taking care of someone but procedures) medication, code, no code type of issues that nurses address on a daily basis. I belive that people have to be aware that in taking care of people they may be asked to do things that they do not belive in. Or go against their belifes. Ethics is something that constantly invade nurses lives it is not as easy as just caring for someone when they are going through something but something they activly participate or don't participate in.

PegRNBSN · Aug 6, 2007

I am VERY strongly anti-abortion. I too view it as murder and as the OP would no sooner participate in killing an adult as a baby. I, however, work with many women who have had abortions, drug users, child abusers and I give them all the same care as those who don't have these issues. It is possible to have very specific moral values and give compassionate care.

I work at a Catholic hospital because the values I have are shared by the hospital.

It can be done

Peace and good luck

Peg

tulsaL&D · Aug 6, 2007

I have worked in a high risk labor and delivery unit for 5 years now. There have been many times we have had to induce a pt for health reasons before they had a term fetus. To Hopefull2009, I don't consider inducing a preterm pt with preeclampsia to be an abortion. As a student I'm not sure if you understand the havoc that preeclampsia can cause. There have been several pts that almost die and end up in the ICU because of preeclampsia>eclampsia>DIC. No infants are mutilated at all. There have also been times that we induce because an infant has problems that are incompatible with life. Anecephaly and potters syndrome are the two we most commonly see. I do not feel like those of you who disagree with abortion are wrong, but from a L&D standpoint all things are not so cut and dry. We do not perform elective abortions that you would see in a clinic setting. As a nurse you must always put the pt first even if you don't agree with a decision. We are not the judge and jury.

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Aug 6, 2007

You can and should be allowed to opt out of procedures -- such as abortions -- that go against your moral beliefs. I understand that it has nothing to do with the person, just the practice. I feel the same way as you.

Sometimes there are gray areas, as other posters have said. A few months ago we had a lady who was 22 weeks pregnant -- just below the gestational age where current resuscitation guidelines indicate neonatal resuscitation efforts -- and was severely preeclamptic with a BP of 220's over 110's, and going into HELLP. She was quickly headed in the wrong direction, and putting off delivery of the baby would have spelled death for her. U/S revealed a severely growth-restricted baby with a cord that looked, in the words of the OB, "moth-eaten."

So she was induced. I didn't participate in her care, simply because I had a different assignment. But I didn't have a problem with the situation. I believe that life is precious and both baby and mother's life are precious. In an ideal situation, we would try to save both lives. But a 22 weeker (those are small enough on a good day) that is IUGR is just not going to make it. I would rather let that life go gracefully back to God than try to resuscitate and poke and intubate and all that. That's just my personal feelings.

OB is a great field, and there are a lot of us who have strong feelings one way or another about this issue. But we get along ok. Continue to think about it, talk about it, pray about it if you want, and follow your heart. I really don't think you will have a problem. :)

fergus51 · Aug 7, 2007

I work on a small unit where we (a secular facility) do not do ab's unless it is a catastrophic anomaly like anencephaly. My beliefs are compatible w/ what we do on our unit. My best advice is, as many others have said, find a unit that does what you can live with. I worked briefly on one where some of us were exempt from this. It did become a staffing problem. Even if you are okay w/ abortion, you don't want to do it day after day due to the staffing mix, if your job is L/D. I had the pleasure of becoming the object of this (legitimate in many ways complaint). Another party complained to me,"You work on a unit where this is done, so I get stuck w/ what you don't want to do." My answer is that the other party worked on a unit where she knew others could refuse and that she might be in that position. IMHO, not a good fit for either of us. Good luck. I think in today's job market, you can find something that is a good fit if you look carefully. I think the OP doesn't want to participate in ab's, not that she wishes to shun anyone who has had one in the past.

This was an issue where I worked as well. I took late term inductions a lot because other nurses didn't want to. It got old sometimes. I don't think any staff member should be constantly dumped on. I did it because I thought those families deserved someone who could participate in their care with a clean conscience, but it did bother me at times that nurses would knowingly work on a very high risk unit that did that type of thing routinely and would always refuse to participate. It often meant that I always had an assignment and they would be sitting, waiting in the break room for a patient to come in (sometimes for hours, reading a magazine, drinking coffee). A few of them wouldn't even relieve me for a break. I never got into it with any of them, but it did cause some hard feelings from my end and certainly made me less likely to care if they were drowning in work. Other nurses who refused were much nicer about it (they would offer to relieve me for a break, get me paperwork, help out with stuff like that, even just provide a shoulder to cry on after some really bad nights) and I never had a problem with them.

crissrn27, RN · Aug 14, 2007

To the OP: I used to think like you. That no matter what the reason, I would never have an abortion, and would never participate in one. For no reason whatsoever. I thought that if the mother was going to die, she should just take the baby as far as she could, then have a section and die. If you were going to have a baby with horrible problems, then you should have them, and see what happens. In other words, very narrow, black and white thinking.

In the past 10 year or so, I have changed that thinking drastically. I, personally, could think of several reasons why I would have an abortion. Including if my life was at risk, since I have 3 other children to take care of now. I wouldn't let my child suffer with anacephaly, or a host of other not-compatible with life defects. Majorly different than what I thought in my teens.

I work in L and D now and wouldn't have a problem taking care of a pt having an abortion. I would do just like I do for drug addicted moms, etc. Try to have some empathy, try to put aside my own beliefs and prejudices, and try to provide good care, just like I do for everyone. You may find you have a change of heart after nursing, and just living for a few more years. Bottom line is, somewhere along the way, you will have to care for people that do things you don't like, don't believe in, and maybe think are just weird or gross. So you have to start seriously thinking about if nursing really is for you, as you most certainly will have to take care these kinds of folks no matter where you work.

rn/writer, RN · Aug 14, 2007

I work in L and D now and wouldn't have a problem taking care of a pt having an abortion. I would do just like I do for drug addicted moms, etc. Try to have some empathy, try to put aside my own beliefs and prejudices, and try to provide good care, just like I do for everyone. You may find you have a change of heart after nursing, and just living for a few more years. Bottom line is, somewhere along the way, you will have to care for people that do things you don't like, don't believe in, and maybe think are just weird or gross. So you have to start seriously thinking about if nursing really is for you, as you most certainly will have to take care these kinds of folks no matter where you work.

The OP never once expressed any qualms about taking care of patients who did things she didn't believe in. She only said she didn't want to participate in the actual abortion procedure itself.

She drew a line concerning what she would or wouldn't be willing to do. She did not say that she would feel conflicted about providing patient care based on what someone else had done.

A number of posters have taken the OP's stance to mean that she might be judgmental, lacking in empathy, or even unsuitable for a nursing career. Does that mean that it is only possible for nurses to care for those with whom they agree? Along with the standard H&P, should we start asking people to fill out questionnaires about their beliefs and practices so that they can be matched with like-minded nurses?

This isn't meant to be hard on anyone, but the point needs to be made that just because someone takes a personal stand regarding their own actions, it doesn't necessarily follow that they will judge those who would decide differently and alter their behavior based on that judgment. Even when judgment of actions takes place, a mature person can still separate the actions from the person and deliver consitstent and compassionate care.

mugwump · Aug 14, 2007

I'm VERY against abortion! I can't imagine supporting some through one, not saying that I would be mean, or anything like that, but I seriously couldn't act like I thought it was "OK" to do it just because they are too selfish to be parent's and would rather kill a baby than give him/her to someone who would give anything to have a baby.
This is a direct quote from the orginal poster. I understand she does not want to particpate in abortions. I am not saying she should. As with most L&D's they don't due abortions accept for medical reasons not the reasons she stated in the above. It is an ethical issue and ethical issues are not black and white. What if a nurse who was jehovas witness refused to give any blood products ever (because she didn't belive in it) would she have issues giving care to her patients. Would and could she refuse to follow through on a doctors order. Also I understand why people would question this persons ability to take care of others. Although she never said she would be mean to them. would you want a nurse taking care of you who thought that no matter what the reason you got an abortion you were "too selfish to be parent's and would rather kill a baby than give him/her to someone who would give anything to have a baby. " How could she. That is the question I ask. What if everyone refused to take care of HIV patients because they got it" due to their lifestyle" would that be right and just. Many people get HIV from many diffrent ways. just a little food for thought.

LydiaNN · Aug 15, 2007

I'm VERY against abortion! I can't imagine supporting some through one, not saying that I would be mean, or anything like that, but I seriously couldn't act like I thought it was "OK" to do it just because they are too selfish to be parent's and would rather kill a baby than give him/her to someone who would give anything to have a baby.
This is a direct quote from the orginal poster. I understand she does not want to particpate in abortions. I am not saying she should. As with most L&D's they don't due abortions accept for medical reasons not the reasons she stated in the above. It is an ethical issue and ethical issues are not black and white. What if a nurse who was jehovas witness refused to give any blood products ever (because she didn't belive in it) would she have issues giving care to her patients. Would and could she refuse to follow through on a doctors order. Also I understand why people would question this persons ability to take care of others. Although she never said she would be mean to them. would you want a nurse taking care of you who thought that no matter what the reason you got an abortion you were "too selfish to be parent's and would rather kill a baby than give him/her to someone who would give anything to have a baby. " How could she. That is the question I ask. What if everyone refused to take care of HIV patients because they got it" due to their lifestyle" would that be right and just. Many people get HIV from many diffrent ways. just a little food for thought.
You are absolutely right about those words from the OP being judgmental, mugwump. I can't understand the claim that calling someone selfish or presuming to understand their motives don't indicate disdain for the patient's decisions. The OP had the right to express that, but that doesn't mean that others don't have the right to see that expression for what it is.

onyx77 · Aug 15, 2007

I'm VERY against abortion! I can't imagine supporting some through one, not saying that I would be mean, or anything like that, but I seriously couldn't act like I thought it was "OK" to do it just because they are too selfish to be parent's and would rather kill a baby than give him/her to someone who would give anything to have a baby.
This is a direct quote from the orginal poster. I understand she does not want to particpate in abortions. I am not saying she should. As with most L&D's they don't due abortions accept for medical reasons not the reasons she stated in the above. It is an ethical issue and ethical issues are not black and white. What if a nurse who was jehovas witness refused to give any blood products ever (because she didn't belive in it) would she have issues giving care to her patients. Would and could she refuse to follow through on a doctors order. Also I understand why people would question this persons ability to take care of others. Although she never said she would be mean to them. would you want a nurse taking care of you who thought that no matter what the reason you got an abortion you were "too selfish to be parent's and would rather kill a baby than give him/her to someone who would give anything to have a baby. " How could she. That is the question I ask. What if everyone refused to take care of HIV patients because they got it" due to their lifestyle" would that be right and just. Many people get HIV from many diffrent ways. just a little food for thought.
The OP's concern is with having to help perform an abortion. NOT taking care of them after the fact. I agree with the OP 100%. I don't think that she is referring so much to the emergant situations as she is the elective abortions. And I also believe that elective abortions are done in selfishness. There are several people in my life that have had abortions, all because they became pregnant at a time that was inconvient to them or they simply never want to have kids. Did I support them through the procedure? NO! Does the fact that they had one affect the way I view them or interact with them? NO! As it won't change the way the OP takes care of abortion pts after the fact. Is she being judgemental? NO! She is simply stating her beliefs. She has a valid concern and shouldn't be told that she doesn't belong in the nursing field because of it or her beliefs. It is this concern that will make her a GREAT nurse!

mugwump · Aug 15, 2007

Just out of curiosity what would anyone consider assisting with an abortion. Where is the line drawn between taking care of the patient and assisting in an abortion. Just curious. Would admitting someone, starting their iv, brining them water, food, giving them pain meds, ansering their call light. Giving them medicatin to start contractions. Being a circulating nurse when you count the intraments and laps. Are none of the above actually assisting with an abortion or are all of them assiting with an abortion. If it was a 23 weeker that had incompatiabilty with life is doing RTS (resolve through sharing stuff) with pictures helping with the abortion.

Each surgery there is a doctor and an assist are they the only ones performing the abortion. I am just curious where the line is drawn between taking care of the patient and assisting in an abortion. Just food for thought